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Male versus Female Expression of Type...

Sunny Ghost

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It's rather difficult to explain, but I'll try... when I read the writings or watch videos of female ENFPs, I note qualities that make them ENFp, notice similar qualities in myself... in short, I recognize that we're the same type. But with most male ENFPs, I notice similar... not exactly habits or mannerisms, something else... that's what i don't know how to describe... and their strange experiences/anecdotes with Ne or type in general correspond with my own, where the female's experience/anecdotes only theoretically make sense. And it's not just me that thinks so... my friends and family concur. Male video: "He acts like you!" Female video: "Are you sure you're the same type?" "YEs, we have XYZ similarities." "If you say so..."

My pet theory is/was that most female ENFPs connect more with Ne-Fi, where most males connect with Ne-Te and keep their Fi more private/internal, as I prefer to do. But I really don't have any support for that, can't think of a good argument, and didn't post it because I expected it to be flamed.

Anyway, i don't think there's an explanation for my experience that won't be met with "Yeah, RIGHT..." but that got me thinking about male/female expression of type, and wondered if anyone else noticed differences.
I think you might be on to something with the Ne-Fi vs. Ne-Te differences in male and female ENFP's. Though not the case with all. I'd rather put it as the more masculine ENFP's tend to rely on Ne-Te, but that could be male or female. And the more feminine rely on Ne-Fi, though they could be male or female.

I have quite a wealth of ENFP friends, and I'd def say that they vary quite a bit. And there are some very flamboyant ENFP's out there, and then the intellectual ENFP's and then the smart-ass, sarcastic goof balls that are heavy on the Te.
 

tinker683

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Yeah, it took me longer to read ISFJ guys. You look different than the ISFJ women I've known, although once I got past the veneer, I could see you all operating under similar values.


Similar...yes....but not always the same...

:ninja:

Ok I was going somewhere with that but I ran out of gas. Yeah, we do but I guess socialization causes us to appear differenty on the outside. We're an odd bunch we are :)
 

Totenkindly

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Ok I was going somewhere with that but I ran out of gas. Yeah, we do but I guess socialization causes us to appear differenty on the outside. We're an odd bunch we are :)

Partly it's the socialization thing (I think ISFJs are more likely to absorb the cultural standards for male vs female in terms of duties and responsibilities), and partly that you're still men, not women, and vice versa.
 

Thalassa

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Yeah, it took me longer to read ISFJ guys. You look different than the ISFJ women I've known, although once I got past the veneer, I could see you all operating under similar values.

Seeee....Tinker seems very ISFJ to me. I've dated a couple of ISFJ guys.
 

Thalassa

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Seeee....Tinker seems very ISFJ to me. I've dated a couple of ISFJ guys.

This is also how I can tell the difference between an ISFJ male and an ISTJ who is being emo because he's depressed.
 

Totenkindly

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Seeee....Tinker seems very ISFJ to me. I've dated a couple of ISFJ guys.

He does now. He's one of the first ISFJ men I've talked to. (I did realize later that one of my uncles is ISFJ + a guy I used to work with, but otherwise I had no idea. Whereas I know a ton of ISFJ women.)
 

EJCC

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Seeee....Tinker seems very ISFJ to me.
I agree. :yes: In part because he reminds me of male INFJs that I'm close with. Same with Viridian (who I still think is ISFJ).
 

Thalassa

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I agree. :yes: In part because he reminds me of male INFJs that I'm close with. Same with Viridian (who I still think is ISFJ).

I agree about Viridian as well. TOTALLY.
 

EJCC

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I agree about Viridian as well. TOTALLY.
Indeed. And it has evidentiary support.
:bookish:
^ New favorite smiley! :laugh:

As for the topic at hand:
E - To blanket generalise, males of any type are more self-centric and aggressive. This appears to be an issue of socialisation.
^ I agree with this. And it's socialization on the part of women, too. Although the topic of women faking Fe has been practically discussed to death on this forum, I really have to bring it up here because women are taught to be sympathetic, active listeners -- almost touchy-feely! -- and men are taught to not talk about their feelings unless they're invalidating them. Which puts female Ts and male Fs in a bit of a tough spot, and how they escape (or don't escape) that trained fakery really depends on the person.

So, I've noticed that women of Fi types tend to be mistyped as Fe (because kind and caring women seem to be assumed to be Fe, just like moms are assumed to be xSFJ!), and Fe men the opposite -- unless those men are independent people, who don't succumb easily to peer pressure (or who have lots of female friends!).

Just stream-of-consciousness; not totally sure.
 

Thalassa

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So, I've noticed that women of Fi types tend to be mistyped as Fe (because kind and caring women seem to be assumed to be Fe, just like moms are assumed to be xSFJ!), and Fe men the opposite -- unless those men are independent people, who don't succumb easily to peer pressure (or who have lots of female friends!).

I think this is very true. Socialization of females has a great deal to do with how they come off, and someone like me who was raised in a very Fe culture (the traditional South) is going to be quite adept at least mimicking Fe in certain situations. However, I am not Fe at all, and my ENFJ sister is proof of that more than anything to me. Also, I've noticed how diplomatic and relatively well-behaved even INFJs come off, even when they're very Ni-dom eccentric.

My ESFJ ex wasn't necessarily "well-behaved" (like my ENFJ sister, who again, is female and was raised in traditional Southern culture, while he is male and was raised by two very liberal parents who were from two very different cultures: England and Mexico) and didn't automatically defer to authority, so in the beginning I went by stereotypes and thought he was ESFP or even ESTP...but I realize now how entirely PREPOSTEROUS that is. He took the MBTI test himself and scored ESFJ...and not only that but my increased knowledge of Jungian function theory allows me to see just how extremely Fe and Si he is. He couldn't be anything but an ESFJ and it really makes me laugh to think I ever thought he was anything but ESFJ.

He is actually EXTRAORDINARILY NURTURING for a man, and in very practical ways, like doing laundry, cleaning the house, reminding me to drink water, arranging the bedroom curtains so that I could sleep better, endlessly calling me and his mother cutesy nicknames, openly crying, being extremely affectionate...and enforcing his mother's morality. I saw this more and more as I got to know him, and he would enforce the strangest things, like how his name came first on the Christmas presents because "he's a man," how he carried my groceries and walked on the sidewalk side because "he's a man, and should protect" me, and enforcing sexual fidelity upon threat of death. He's also very orderly, organized in an external way, and sooooo good at charming people, and knowing exactly how he should act in certain social situations, despite how he is fer realz.
 

Viridian

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He is actually EXTRAORDINARILY NURTURING for a man, and in very practical ways, like doing laundry, cleaning the house, reminding me to drink water, arranging the bedroom curtains so that I could sleep better, endlessly calling me and his mother cutesy nicknames, openly crying, being extremely affectionate...and enforcing his mother's morality. I saw this more and more as I got to know him, and he would enforce the strangest things, like how his name came first on the Christmas presents because "he's a man," how he carried my groceries and walked on the sidewalk side because "he's a man, and should protect" me, and enforcing sexual fidelity upon threat of death. He's also very orderly, organized in an external way, and sooooo good at charming people, and knowing exactly how he should act in certain social situations, despite how he is fer realz.

Interesting... My ESFJ dad also does the underlined, though he differs quite a lot from your description. He has that "Let me help you... PLEASE" thing going on, and frequently says things like "I love you, son, did you know that?". He's practical in a more "patriarchal" sense, reminding me of my responsibilities and offering money even when I don't ask. :biggrin: He's not exactly "traditional", and comes off as ESFP-ish at times due to his larger-than-life presence and energetic - jittery, even - disposition.

On the flipside, he can be kind of like the stereotypical Jewish mother - "I do everything for you, how dare you find me a wee bit overbearing!". I've nicknamed him "Papa Bear". :laugh:
 

Thalassa

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Interesting... My ESFJ dad also does the underlined, though he differs quite a lot from your description. He has that "Let me help you... PLEASE" thing going on, and frequently says things like "I love you, son, did you know that?". He's practical in a more "patriarchal" sense, reminding me of my responsibilities and offering money even when I don't ask. :biggrin: He's not exactly "traditional", and comes off as ESFP-ish at times due to his larger-than-life presence and energetic - jittery, even - disposition.

On the flipside, he can be kind of like the stereotypical Jewish mother - "I do everything for you, how dare you find me a wee bit overbearing!". I've nicknamed him "Papa Bear". :laugh:

Well everyone's Fe varies slightly, everyone's Fe is not the same which is why all SFJs are not conservative Christians, but reflect the Fe of their primary social group whether it be liberal hippies or the Italian Mafia...but yes I can see what you're saying about your ESFJ dad...he's probably a little healthier than my ex, too. You also have to remember that I met my ex when he was in his mid-twenties and your dad is also middle-aged, at least, which would make him seem more patriarchal...also, since he's your dad...and my ESFJ ex was my boyfriend...but he had many "husband like" characteristics, the sort of things one thinks of when thinking of a traditional husband. Also, he has that presence your dad has I've bolded, he loves dogs, and children like him.
 

amazingdatagirl

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I've been thinking about this issue regarding ISTJ females with high tertiary Fi. Si-Te is undoubtedly the preferred functional pair but softened by strongly idealistic introverted feeling. One of the women is my mother-in-law - I have known her for nearly 40 years.

Her husband is ESFJ. He was angry counter-phobic guy when he was younger. A near death experience in his mid 40's seemed to unlock his heroic Fe. The guy wants to help everyone. I love him dearly even if he is a nuisance at times. He personifies the tension that male Fe-doms feel in traditional culture.
 

Thalassa

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I know an ISTJ male who has been in an Si-Fi loop who has VERY HIGH tert Fi...his Te is obvious though if you get to know him, and his morality and expression of feeling is not Fe. He's using his Te more and more now. A person who is depressed or whatever can get stuck in loops which make their aux function seem almost non-existent. It also produces extreme introversion, I think.
 

Viridian

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Well everyone's Fe varies slightly, everyone's Fe is not the same which is why all SFJs are not conservative Christians, but reflect the Fe of their primary social group whether it be liberal hippies or the Italian Mafia...but yes I can see what you're saying about your ESFJ dad...he's probably a little healthier than my ex, too. You also have to remember that I met my ex when he was in his mid-twenties and your dad is also middle-aged, at least, which would make him seem more patriarchal...also, since he's your dad...and my ESFJ ex was my boyfriend...but he had many "husband like" characteristics, the sort of things one thinks of when thinking of a traditional husband. Also, he has that presence your dad has I've bolded, he loves dogs, and children like him.

I see what you're saying... Though I'd say his dom Fe manifests itself less in loyalty to a particular group/belief - soccer teams notwithstanding ;) - and more in a rather... overt manifestation of caretaking.

He's also... less than mature in some aspects. You know the guy who thinks like "How dare those people ruin my holiday by driving in the road! It's like it's public or something!". He also has some, well, awkward moments in less familiar social settings, sometimes acting a little too "chummy" for the occasion. All in all, though, he's a pretty cool guy. :D

(...I'm derailing the thread, ain't I? :doh:)
 
G

Glycerine

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Interesting... My ESFJ dad also does the underlined, though he differs quite a lot from your description. He has that "Let me help you... PLEASE" thing going on, and frequently says things like "I love you, son, did you know that?". He's practical in a more "patriarchal" sense, reminding me of my responsibilities and offering money even when I don't ask. :biggrin: He's not exactly "traditional", and comes off as ESFP-ish at times due to his larger-than-life presence and energetic - jittery, even - disposition.

On the flipside, he can be kind of like the stereotypical Jewish mother - "I do everything for you, how dare you find me a wee bit overbearing!". I've nicknamed him "Papa Bear". :laugh:

hoorah for ESFJ fathers. :cheers:

I can totally relate to your post.

Me: Can I please have some frozen chicken nuggets?
Him: You can have anything you want, baby. How many bags? One? Two? Ten?
Me: uhhhh... one. thanks.
 

amazingdatagirl

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A person who is depressed or whatever can get stuck in loops which make their aux function seem almost non-existent. It also produces extreme introversion, I think.
My father-in-law was hell to live with when he was younger - even his wife's perfectly regimented Si-Te wasn't enough to quell his temper tantrums. She was almost mute when I first got to know her.

Interesting to see the balance of power shift in that relationship.
 

tinker683

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Seeee....Tinker seems very ISFJ to me. I've dated a couple of ISFJ guys.

:blush: :wubbie:

This is also how I can tell the difference between an ISFJ male and an ISTJ who is being emo because he's depressed.

Oh? Do feel free to elaborate, I'm genuinely curious, seeing as I seem to sometimes score ISTJ :yes:

He does now. He's one of the first ISFJ men I've talked to. (I did realize later that one of my uncles is ISFJ + a guy I used to work with, but otherwise I had no idea. Whereas I know a ton of ISFJ women.)

Who, me or your ex? I'm assuming your ex

I agree. :yes: In part because he reminds me of male INFJs that I'm close with. Same with Viridian (who I still think is ISFJ).

I've sometimes wondered if I am intact an INFJ. I don't think so, I'm too much into the "here and now" and really abstract stuff tends to either bore me or irritate me. Still, I've never met a confirmed INFJ male so I have no basis of comparison.

He is actually EXTRAORDINARILY NURTURING for a man, and in very practical ways, like doing laundry, cleaning the house, reminding me to drink water, arranging the bedroom curtains so that I could sleep better, endlessly calling me and his mother cutesy nicknames, openly crying, being extremely affectionate...and enforcing his mother's morality. I saw this more and more as I got to know him, and he would enforce the strangest things, like how his name came first on the Christmas presents because "he's a man," how he carried my groceries and walked on the sidewalk side because "he's a man, and should protect" me, and enforcing sexual fidelity upon threat of death. He's also very orderly, organized in an external way, and sooooo good at charming people, and knowing exactly how he should act in certain social situations, despite how he is fer realz.


...wow. Some of the stuff your ex did I can understand but other things he did seem very strange to me. It's interesting to me how circumstances and how we're raises can shape two SJs. I guess it's because I grew up with an ENFP father and a IxFJ mother so I'm not nearly so rigid as I often read about other SJs :shrug:
 

Thalassa

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:blush: :wubbie:

Oh? Do feel free to elaborate, I'm genuinely curious, seeing as I seem to sometimes score ISTJ :yes:

Hmm you may score ISTJ because of good use of Ti, just like JTG can score ISFJ because of his high Fi...but you are definitely Fe, it appears, though I think Si/Ti could make you seem T-ish in some regards.

You definitely seem much more like an ISFJ than ISTJ to me. I can elaborate further if you'd like.


...wow. Some of the stuff your ex did I can understand but other things he did seem very strange to me. It's interesting to me how circumstances and how we're raises can shape two SJs. I guess it's because I grew up with an ENFP father and a IxFJ mother so I'm not nearly so rigid as I often read about other SJs :shrug:

Everybody's Fe is different because of different ethical value systems in the environment, et al. Also my ex is an SJ raised by a very close SJ mother, too.

My ex is also a very neurotic person, to put it mildly.
 

tinker683

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Hmm you may score ISTJ because of good use of Ti, just like JTG can score ISFJ because of his high Fi...but you are definitely Fe, it appears, though I think Si/Ti could make you seem T-ish in some regards.

You definitely seem much more like an ISFJ than ISTJ to me. I can elaborate further if you'd like.

Certainly, if it isn't too much trouble :)

Everybody's Fe is different because of different ethical value systems in the environment, et al. Also my ex is an SJ raised by a very close SJ mother, too.

My ex is also a very neurotic person, to put it mildly.

Neuroticism seems to common with some (but not all) of the SJs I know, myself included. Some of our routines we have an almost OCD like quality to them.

It just boggles me sometimes how it is that I seemed to somehow escape becoming as rigid as some other ISFJs I know, particularly the females. I just keep thinking, "What makes you so different from me? We have have similar value systems yet why is it that you and I can come to such vastly different conclusions?"

I dunno, maybe I have a stronger Ni than I give myself credit for, or perhaps a more influential inferior-Ne?

It's something I like to ponder on :)
 
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