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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Certainly, if it isn't too much trouble
    You're softer and have the accomodation qualities of Fe. You also invite connection with warmth and sharing of yourself. While an ISTJ can have strong Fi ethics, and even act "emo" sometimes, their depth of feeling is more guarded and they are more object/task focused than on accomodation and relating. For an ISTJ in an Si/Fi loop, connecting with or accomodating others may still matter, but seems secondary to their need to express themselves, their own personal idea of justice (I don't know if you ever knew this about JTG, but if he thinks things are unfair, he goes on personal crusades to undermine the people he sees as being offensive to his own sense of morality, and could frankly give a shit who it bothers, because the importance is his own intense ethical value system, his self-expression, and amusement...the other day on Personality Nation they removed some of his posts for something, so he went through and reported every post with a similar flaw, and they ended up apologizing to him and putting his posts back. His motives for what he's done on Type C are similar...and it is eerily reminisicent of some of the complaints some of the INTJs have had about Type C...tert Fi, man...he's also more "guarded" and shy about his feelings, and prefers to show affection by doing things for people and being loyal and stuff rather than saying affectionate things or more "warm" Fe ways of doing it...though he finds it extremely funny to mimic Fe ...)

    So yeah...I don't know if that helps. Your Fe seems much more sincere to me. I could just see you as an ISFJ having a lot of Si/Ti precision, which could make you seem orderly and more T.



    Neuroticism seems to common with some (but not all) of the SJs I know, myself included. Some of our routines we have an almost OCD like quality to them.

    It just boggles me sometimes how it is that I seemed to somehow escape becoming as rigid as some other ISFJs I know, particularly the females. I just keep thinking, "What makes you so different from me? We have have similar value systems yet why is it that you and I can come to such vastly different conclusions?"

    I dunno, maybe I have a stronger Ni than I give myself credit for, or perhaps a more influential inferior-Ne?

    It's something I like to ponder on
    Yeah everybody is different. In my case, I'm either more theoretical than some ESFPs or more "earthy" than a lot of ENFPs.

    But when I say my ESFJ is neurotic, he's really got some issues. I think he's gotten a little better though. It's been years since we've broken up and I think he might be making some progress. I hope so for his sake.

  2. #42
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You're softer and have the accomodation qualities of Fe. You also invite connection with warmth and sharing of yourself. While an ISTJ can have strong Fi ethics, and even act "emo" sometimes, their depth of feeling is more guarded and they are more object/task focused than on accomodation and relating. For an ISTJ in an Si/Fi loop, connecting with or accomodating others may still matter, but seems secondary to their need to express themselves, their own personal idea of justice
    Thank you for your kind words. The differences between Fe and Fi are something I've been looking into a lot lately as I'm feeling that I want to develop and work on my Fi for my own personal growth (for a myriad of reasons that I won't list here but will share with you if you'd like).

    I know a few ISTJs in my life (one of my ex-girlfriends being one of them) and I find how similar a female ISTJ can be to me in some respects and yet how very different we can also be in other respects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    (I don't know if you ever knew this about JTG, but if he thinks things are unfair, he goes on personal crusades to undermine the people he sees as being offensive to his own sense of morality, and could frankly give a shit who it bothers, because the importance is his own intense ethical value system, his self-expression, and amusement...the other day on Personality Nation they removed some of his posts for something, so he went through and reported every post with a similar flaw, and they ended up apologizing to him and putting his posts back. His motives for what he's done on Type C are similar...and it is eerily reminisicent of some of the complaints some of the INTJs have had about Type C...tert Fi, man...he's also more "guarded" and shy about his feelings, and prefers to show affection by doing things for people and being loyal and stuff rather than saying affectionate things or more "warm" Fe ways of doing it...though he finds it extremely funny to mimic Fe ...)
    I never knew JTG very well but this is all very interesting about him. I thought he was an ISFJ as well? I'm guess then he's since re-evaluated himself? I suppose I could see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    So yeah...I don't know if that helps. Your Fe seems much more sincere to me. I could just see you as an ISFJ having a lot of Si/Ti precision, which could make you seem orderly and more T.
    It does. It's a good thing, I think, if what you say is true as I understand that development of the test function isn't something that happens until later in life. I'm only 28 years old so if I've worked on my tert function this well up to this point then I think I'm doing pretty well.

    Now if I can just get my inferior function under control....

    You mentioned a sincere use of Fe (which is very sweet, so thank you )...would an example of insincere use of Fe be using it for manipulative or selfish purposes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah everybody is different. In my case, I'm either more theoretical than some ESFPs or more "earthy" than a lot of ENFPs.
    Sounds about right. I have a hard time differentiating between Ne and Se and get the two confused all the time. You seem very practical and down to earth though so I'm more inclined to think your an ESFP.

    I think it's a common mistake that a lot of N's make in thinking that Sensors can't be "deep" or "really abstract" or have really well thought out opinions or feelings about very theoretical topics. While certainly some of us can't, I think those that can just often choose not too for various different reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But when I say my ESFJ is neurotic, he's really got some issues. I think he's gotten a little better though. It's been years since we've broken up and I think he might be making some progress. I hope so for his sake.
    Ah. I hope he is too. Perhaps my earlier use of the word was inappropriate then. I have certain routines and patterns of behavior that I follow very strictly but nothing in the way that could be considered a serious impediment on my life.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Thank you for your kind words. The differences between Fe and Fi are something I've been looking into a lot lately as I'm feeling that I want to develop and work on my Fi for my own personal growth (for a myriad of reasons that I won't list here but will share with you if you'd like).
    That's cool. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.

    I know a few ISTJs in my life (one of my ex-girlfriends being one of them) and I find how similar a female ISTJ can be to me in some respects and yet how very different we can also be in other respects.
    Hmm. Interesting. You seem pretty darn Fe to me, but of course I do not know you IRL. I lean VERY strongly toward Fe for you though. You seem like a prototypical male ISFJ to me. Seriously.



    I never knew JTG very well but this is all very interesting about him. I thought he was an ISFJ as well? I'm guess then he's since re-evaluated himself? I suppose I could see that.
    I knew he had Fi the first week I started seriously talking to him one on one. But when I didn't know him well and just saw mostly his forum persona, I even believed he could be ISFP. However, as I got to know him I realized just how seriously Si dominant he is. JTG is absolutely Si dominant. There are lots of reasons I started suspecting ISTJ which I won't go into because it's because of knowing him personally, however I did waver back and forth for ISFJ/ISTJ for him for quite a while.

    He kept saying "WHY AM I NOT LIKE OTHER ISFJs. WHY DO I NOT RELATE TO THESE GUYS." (and you were given as one of the examples that he is not like, also he mocked one of my ISFJ exes considerably)...anyway, to make a long story even longer...SimulatedWorld noticed it to, and just from JTG's forum behavior, didn't even have to talk to him personally like I did. Kept insisting JTG was an ISTJ. I was inclined to agree because of what I know about him.

    Finally, JTG looked into function theory, and some other information about ISTJs and said, "OMG THIS IS ME." And by that point, I was like, "yeah..." and he absolutely is ISTJ by the Beebe function model.

    And as I mentioned, it's very strange that his little "crusades" are so similar to some of the INTJs (but I find JTG's more endearing and less crazy for some reason, he seems more in touch with reality to me, despite the fact I don't always agree with him).



    It does. It's a good thing, I think, if what you say is true as I understand that development of the test function isn't something that happens until later in life. I'm only 28 years old so if I've worked on my tert function this well up to this point then I think I'm doing pretty well.

    Now if I can just get my inferior function under control....

    You mentioned a sincere use of Fe (which is very sweet, so thank you )...would an example of insincere use of Fe be using it for manipulative or selfish purposes?
    You seem very healthy to me, and the short answer to the last line is yes.



    Sounds about right. I have a hard time differentiating between Ne and Se and get the two confused all the time. You seem very practical and down to earth though so I'm more inclined to think your an ESFP.

    I think it's a common mistake that a lot of N's make in thinking that Sensors can't be "deep" or "really abstract" or have really well thought out opinions or feelings about very theoretical topics. While certainly some of us can't, I think those that can just often choose not too for various different reasons.
    Thank you.



    Ah. I hope he is too. Perhaps my earlier use of the word was inappropriate then. I have certain routines and patterns of behavior that I follow very strictly but nothing in the way that could be considered a serious impediment on my life.

  4. #44
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Hmm. Interesting. You seem pretty darn Fe to me, but of course I do not know you IRL. I lean VERY strongly toward Fe for you though. You seem like a prototypical male ISFJ to me. Seriously.
    Indeedy, I just know how analytical I can be, particular since I've started working at my current job and have had to "toughen up" so to speak

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I knew he had Fi the first week I started seriously talking to him one on one. But when I didn't know him well and just saw mostly his forum persona, I even believed he could be ISFP. However, as I got to know him I realized just how seriously Si dominant he is. JTG is absolutely Si dominant. There are lots of reasons I started suspecting ISTJ which I won't go into because it's because of knowing him personally, however I did waver back and forth for ISFJ/ISTJ for him for quite a while.

    He kept saying "WHY AM I NOT LIKE OTHER ISFJs. WHY DO I NOT RELATE TO THESE GUYS." (and you were given as one of the examples that he is not like, also he mocked one of my ISFJ exes considerably)...anyway, to make a long story even longer...SimulatedWorld noticed it to, and just from JTG's forum behavior, didn't even have to talk to him personally like I did. Kept insisting JTG was an ISTJ. I was inclined to agree because of what I know about him.

    Finally, JTG looked into function theory, and some other information about ISTJs and said, "OMG THIS IS ME." And by that point, I was like, "yeah..." and he absolutely is ISTJ by the Beebe function model.
    Yeah, I was actually wondering if I was really ISFJ based on his behavior, and the behavior of other ISFJs that I've heard about from other members. They'd tell me about their spouses/ex's/whoever and I'd be like, "Wow...I'm nothing like that!"

    However, since I've gotten pretty comfortable with my own type I just wonder instead if these people have mistyped these so-called ISFJs that are such bugaboo's to them or perhaps (as you have been stating all along in this thread) that who they are is shaped by there environment or time period they were born in.

    That, or we're just really scary when we go off the bend

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    And as I mentioned, it's very strange that his little "crusades" are so similar to some of the INTJs (but I find JTG's more endearing and less crazy for some reason, he seems more in touch with reality to me, despite the fact I don't always agree with him).
    That you say this, particularly the bold, only reinforces me earlier assertions that you're an ESFP. Whenever I deal with N's, I very often get this "chasm" or "gulf" like feeling, like they and I are on two totally different wavelengths. Male, female, doesn't matter, I'll still get that feeling.

    I've never really gotten that with you Take that as you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You seem very healthy to me, and the short answer to the last line is yes.
    I appreciate the thought but I've been doubtful about myself for a while now. I've been feeling increasingly isolated over the past several months and have been trying very hard to be mindful of my own behavior, how I act and react to other people, and what I can do to improve myself and my situation.

    I'll PM you the details if you would be interested in hearing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Not quite sure what I did to earn this, but it's much appreciated all the same
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #45
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Either can gender can be either T or F. But because females are naturally designed to be the mothers, carrying and nurturing the young child, their natural focus has shifted more to the " humane" or"personal" side of life. (Including being more in touch with the emotions). Since males then were the breadwinners, and the strong protectors, they became more focused on the " technical" or "impersonal". The traditional roles of society formed around this, with the typical model of a woman being said to be SFJ or SFP, and the typical model of a man being STJ or at least STP.(Notice how both are S). Even though modern society has been changing the roles and integrating both genders to the same sorts of careers and family tasks, the associations have stuck.
    This is a bit simplistic. Men may have been the primary hunters, but women were most likely the literal "breadwinners", since anthropological evidence points to home-based women as the developers and original implementers of agriculture. And in all of nature, there is little more fierce and protective than a mother defending her young. Are you suggesting some basis for T/F difference in biology, or rather in centuries of socialization, or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    And it's socialization on the part of women, too. Although the topic of women faking Fe has been practically discussed to death on this forum, I really have to bring it up here because women are taught to be sympathetic, active listeners -- almost touchy-feely! -- and men are taught to not talk about their feelings unless they're invalidating them. Which puts female Ts and male Fs in a bit of a tough spot, and how they escape (or don't escape) that trained fakery really depends on the person.
    I would suspect that some types are inherently more resistant to socialization than others.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #46
    Member amazingdatagirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And in all of nature, there is little more fierce and protective than a mother defending her young. Are you suggesting some basis for T/F difference in biology, or rather in centuries of socialization, or something else?
    @Eric B isn't saying that maternal Fi/Fe is inferior to big, strong, hairy, crotch-scratching Ts. Regardless of personality type, women are biologically designed to produce and protect children. Those mammary glands hanging on your chest aren't there just for looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would suspect that some types are inherently more resistant to socialization than others.
    It's hard to resist socialization when your child is hungry or sick or afraid. Those conditions require an F-like response (even if you have to fake it).

  7. #47
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I am not saying any function is inferior or superior, just pointing out that T would be just as valuable as F in helping to keep oneself and one's children fed and out of danger. You seem to be coming down on the side of socialization, which seems to me a more reasonable explanation for the T/F difference than biology.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #48
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    It just boggles me sometimes how it is that I seemed to somehow escape becoming as rigid as some other ISFJs I know, particularly the females. I just keep thinking, "What makes you so different from me? We have have similar value systems yet why is it that you and I can come to such vastly different conclusions?"

    I dunno, maybe I have a stronger Ni than I give myself credit for, or perhaps a more influential inferior-Ne?

    It's something I like to ponder on
    I think it's your Ne. My theory about stereotypical unhealthy SJs is that they don't have enough Ne. Otherwise, they turn out incredibly rigid, like you were saying. The fact that we've escaped that fate, is something you and I have in common.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I never knew JTG very well but this is all very interesting about him. I thought he was an ISFJ as well? I'm guess then he's since re-evaluated himself? I suppose I could see that.
    I don't think you missed much, by not knowing him well... But then again, I don't think much of him. There is an Fe and an Fi method of being a jerk, and his is an Fi method. He typed as ISFJ for a while, but the way that he would lash out at people was just so incredibly Fi. (Frankly, @Marmie Dearest, I don't know how you deal with him. Or those INTJs you were talking about.)
    You mentioned a sincere use of Fe (which is very sweet, so thank you )...would an example of insincere use of Fe be using it for manipulative or selfish purposes?
    OH MY GOD YES. I had an INFJ roommate like this a few years ago; she was prone to being depressed, self-pitying and having a martyr complex, and would blatantly use people (including me) to make her feel better -- or at least to reinforce her martyr complex by making her feel like her behavior was justified. And I didn't even notice how I was being used until she moved out; I would get righteously indignant too, and feel like I was this strong protector of a delicate flower (because I think she was trying to seem like a delicate flower; or at least she didn't know she was coming across that way). Obviously I have yet to get over it so pardon the venting. That's just an example of unhealthy Fe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would suspect that some types are inherently more resistant to socialization than others.
    Not really; from my experience it relates much more to self-confidence, determination, self-awareness, and obviously the environment in which you were raised. For example, my dad spent his early childhood years and most of his adulthood in the south and he is INCREDIBLY passive-aggressive -- and INTP. (My INFJ mom is more direct than him. ) Sure, he calls people on their BS when they don't have their facts straight, but sometimes he'll try to tell me something so obnoxiously indirectly that I'll call HIM on his BS; "You know, if you don't like my purse you should just say so! I can take it!!"
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    (Frankly, @Marmie Dearest, I don't know how you deal with him.
    By wrapping him in a lovey-dovey blanket of Smudgy cuddles, of course.

    Besides, I'm going to give the answer I give to everyone, you don't really know him.


    (GOOD CALL ON SEEING HIS Fi THOUGH!! I think that's really awesome because a lot of people just took his ISFJ type at face value or thought he was an ISTP because of his shenanigans)

    Or those INTJs you were talking about.)
    I've had it with INTJs.

    ISTJs are easier.

  10. #50
    Member amazingdatagirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You seem to be coming down on the side of socialization, which seems to me a more reasonable explanation for the T/F difference than biology.
    I did not intend to imply that T/F preference is the result of socialization rather than inborn biological programming. In fact, I said that an T parent might have to fake an F-like response to a child's needs.

    Personally, I believe that the preference for T object-based decision making is a result of genetic and in utero conditions. Behavioral conditioning causes female Ts to assume traditionally female F social roles. Likewise, F males tend to become more T-like. Even though an individual may choose to role play the opposite decision making function, the inborn personality preference does not change.

    Back to my example of maternal F, I was not saying that all mommies must be xxFx types. Rather, I was trying to make the point that children (even little NTs) have physical and emotional needs that require F-style nurturing. Regardless of MBTI, T parents can develop the relational skills that are necessary to raise reasonably well adjusted children.

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