Flipping MBTI on Its Head

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I understand that concept and it does make sense. I'm just trying to change the perspective on the theory because it's getting kind of boring for me.

 

[King sns]

The relief function is supposed to be exactly what it means. What if it's providing relief from the dominant, instead of a situation? The dominant is creating the pressure, it is something you are focusing on and trying to solve and enact, but are unable to. Perhaps the goal is to understand the dominant through your other functions. Maybe the dominant is not something you are good at, but more like a puzzle you've personally singled out to solve and now you use the other functions in an attempt to decipher the purpose of the dominant and when you're auxiliary function does not work you use your relief. Maybe we are the problem and we're trying to solve ourselves.

It's late, I apologize for the lofty language. Thoughts?

I don't think the language is lofty. Makes sense. I always thought of the first three functions being mashed together. Not like, "First this, then that, then that." It's like a team of three people. One is supposed to be in charge but in the end it's just a mixture of the three. Sometimes one speaks louder than others, depending on the situation. Not like, "well, this first function, he's my pride and joy, I'm an INTP so Ti defines me right?" Nah, I don't think so. One could be more confusing than the other, one could make you happier than the other, one could be relief, (the "tertiary" possibly, like you say), one could emerge in this case, one could emerge in that case. I think that in any case, the primary seems like the most obvious face to the outside world. It's a face. So to me, your theory is entirely plausible. For me, Te is the only function that I notice and pay attention to, and it's the only function that I seems to be consistent on tests. (And sometimes depending on the dichotomy test, I'll test "T"- believed to be due to a focus on Te for me, and if the dichotomy test seems to ask Te related question, they are going to get Te related answers.) I'm clearly not an ExTJ, but there is something about the tertiary function that seems to say a lot about me as a person. It seems to be the most needed, somehow. So anyway, that ends up being my theory. That the aux and tertiary are just as prominent and important as the primary, just for less obvious reasons. (Those reasons, I'm not sure.)

 

[Xyk]

I read that post thinking "relief function" was just another word for "tertiary function." But then Xyk was talking about his inferior function. So I don't know what you're referring to.

I was making guesses. Fe seems to relieve me most of the time. I have no idea what Si is or does.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I don't think the language is lofty. Makes sense. I always thought of the first three functions being mashed together. Not like, "First this, then that, then that." It's like a team of three people. One is supposed to be in charge but in the end it's just a mixture of the three. Sometimes one speaks louder than others, depending on the situation. Not like, "well, this first function, he's my pride and joy, I'm an INTP so Ti defines me right?" Nah, I don't think so. One could be more confusing than the other, one could make you happier than the other, one could be relief, (the "tertiary" possibly, like you say), one could emerge in this case, one could emerge in that case. I think that in any case, the primary seems like the most obvious face to the outside world. It's a face. So to me, your theory is entirely plausible. For me, Te is the only function that I notice and pay attention to, and it's the only function that I seems to be consistent on tests. (And sometimes depending on the dichotomy test, I'll test "T"- believed to be due to a focus on Te for me, and if the dichotomy test seems to ask Te related question, they are going to get Te related answers.) I'm clearly not an ExTJ, but there is something about the tertiary function that seems to say a lot about me as a person. It seems to be the most needed, somehow. So anyway, that ends up being my theory. That the aux and tertiary are just as prominent and important as the primary, just for less obvious reasons. (Those reasons, I'm not sure.)

I think it may seem more important to you simply because it's the only function you use to judge the outside world and you come into contact without outside world constantly because of your Pe. As such you are also pressured to make choices about the outside world because of the prevailing judging function Fe.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I was making guesses. Fe seems to relieve me most of the time. I have no idea what Si is or does.

The combination of Ti and Si should create a sort of library. Ti structures the library and Si brings a sort of Dewey Decimal system so you can specifically find the piece of information you're look for as well as the records to search for the "book" you're trying to find.

 

[INTP]

I understand that concept and it does make sense. I'm just trying to change the perspective on the theory because it's getting kind of boring for me.

read jung

 

[INTP]

I understand that concept and it does make sense. I'm just trying to change the perspective on the theory because it's getting kind of boring for me.

read jung

 

[Fluffywolf]

I was making guesses. Fe seems to relieve me most of the time. I have no idea what Si is or does.

Often reflect on your actions? Ever looked into your post history to look back on past threads/posts? Ever reminisced over certain stages and times in your life?

That's what Si does for INTP's in terms of relief.

 

[Xyk]

Often reflect on your actions? Ever looked into your post history to look back on past threads/posts? Ever reminisced over certain stages and times in your life?

That's what Si does for INTP's in terms of relief.

Not often. I'm usually very future-oriented (though that could be related to my age and the events going on around me. I'm 18 and starting college in about two and a half weeks). My memory, especially short-term, is actually quite poor. No, usually when I get stressed, my thinking gets cloudy and I rely on my feelings more. As I reflect on myself, I find that I do reflect most of the time. Like lately I've been kicking myself for telling my best friend that I loved her like three years ago. I don't really see it as relief though. I think my tertiary function is the one I use the least.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Not often. I'm usually very future-oriented (though that could be related to my age and the events going on around me. I'm 18 and starting college in about two and a half weeks). My memory, especially short-term, is actually quite poor. No, usually when I get stressed, my thinking gets cloudy and I rely on my feelings more. As I reflect on myself, I find that I do reflect most of the time. Like lately I've been kicking myself for telling my best friend that I loved her like three years ago. I don't really see it as relief though. I think my tertiary function is the one I use the least.

Well, you're 18, your tertiary will really start to kick in in your 20's.

 

[Xyk]

Well, you're 18, your tertiary will really start to kick in in your 20's.

Haha, good to know what to expect. Of course now, it's going to happen. We've gone and changed the result by observing it.

 

[crack]

Looks like I don't have to create my own thread. Huzzah!

Yesterday I was reading some thread where Giggly posted in (haha, that's all I remember...) where someone suggested the relief function (tertiary, 3rd) was "relief" from either the dominant solely or just when becoming stressed in general (can't remember which - both, maybe?). Not agreeing with this but not giving it any thought after - just forgetting the topic altogether - I was doing something totally unrelated to the MBTI and even the internet earlier today, when a thought hit me.

Relief function = relief* from the Aux**?
*Relief: feeling of relief; de-stressed
**"from the Aux": from stress caused by the Aux or indulging in the Aux

It occurred to me the Tert is the total opposite of the Aux, in that both are in opposite direction (not the right word, but I mean: if the Aux is extroverted, the Tert is introverted - vice versa) and the opposite quality (not the right word, but I mean: F vs. T, N vs. S; e.g. If the Aux is S, the Tert is N, or if the Aux is T, the Tert is F) of the same type (once again not the right word, but I mean: the Aux and Tert both belong to either the Judging function set i.e. F/T or Perceiving function set i.e. N/S). Since they deal with fulfilling the same purpose (i.e., making judgments (Judging functions) or perceiving (... Perceiving functions), the pair of Aux/Tert can rightfully be considered "opposites" since they judge or perceive in totally opposite ways (F judges by value, T by logic solely; N perceives imaginatively/with the future in mind, S deals in the 'concrete').

Was that paragraph hard to follow? Sorry, I'm under the light influence of a drug at the moment and that's how it came out...

Anyway. The point of distinguishing them as opposites is this: If it is our Aux or indulgence of our Aux that stresses us out in particular, it makes sense for us to try the "totally opposite" method of doing the same thing (Judging, or Perceiving). There's reason behind why we don't just flip J/P (i.e. from a F or T Aux to seeking relief in a N or S function), but I hadn't, prior to this post, thought about why this is and I refuse to try to construct sentences on-the-spot especially in a loose mental state.

Where do I get off accusatorily suspecting the Aux function of causing us stress? Two different reasons. Note: The following reasoning hinges on the belief that our Dom function is the function we are "most comfortable" with (there seems to be some argument over what the Dom function is/why it is the "dominant" earlier in this thread that I didn't parse through to see if this is correct or just my incorrect understanding of the MBTI). Additionally, this operation "makes sense" to me: I ran this through my extremely limited pool of people

• Now, the first reason is this: The Dom/Aux functions always work in the opposite direction - if the Dom is introverted, the Aux is extroverted, and vice versa. Now here comes speculation: Do introverts not claim that, in general, forcing themselves to act "extroverted" (extravert their thoughts/idk wut, etc) is draining for them? And does it not seem that Extroverts, in general, seem to be more uncomfortable with turning inwards and really focusing and sitting still (I don't mean sitting still literally, I'm having an extremely rocky time being articulate... hopefully you understand what I mean - basically introspecting, I guess, aka what it is to intravert/act introverted and such)? If you accept that as true, it makes sense to become stressed after too much indulgence in the Aux because it is in the opposite direction of our Dom, which is the direction (way) we are comfortable being (e.g.: introvert's Dom is an introverted function, they're most comfortable being this way, where the Aux function is acting extroverted-ly). Related to this idea is the MBTI theory/idea of the two different "faces" a person has - introverted and extroverted - with the simple addendum that one is not comfortable in general with the oppositely-direction'd face of their Dom (i.e. Introvert is uncomfortable being extroverted, i.e. switching to their 'extroverted face,' and vice versa for extroverts). So the logic is that, basically, one is not completely comfortable with their Aux, thus it causes discomfort->stress->... ta-da.
• The second reason: Sort of a continuation of the first reason. The first, in a nutshell: if Introverted, our comfort lies in being introverted (i.e. introverted function), and vice versa for extraverted. Continuing: We find relief, reprieve - whatever the Relief function supposedly does - by acting in the direction we are most comfortable with - e.g., introverts feel comfortable being introverted, etc. And it just so happens the Tert is always in the same direction as the Dom (e.g. ENTP's Dom/Tert is Ne/Fe, ISTJ is Si/F, etc.). So the speculation is that perhaps we feel stressed by being too extroverted (if introverted) or introverted (if extroverted), so we go back to our comfortable direction (i/e) when seeking relief/reprieve?
• Bonus: I reality tested this theory (that what it is we're becoming stressed by when we revert to our Tert when seeking relief is the Aux function) and thought it through conceptually and it seemed to pass both tests... but my sample pool is really, really small and none of them have ever shown much dependent-like usage of their Tert... so maybe I cannot perform valid reality testing of this.

Agh. So much typing the above is comprised of that I forgot the full picture of two supporting arguments for this theory (not reason, but supporting argument). One had something to do with Dom-Tert loops and how the Dom-Tert loop forgoes the oppositely-direction'd face of the Dom and there's a certain relief/safety feeling in the Dom-Tert loop (though a subconscious feeling of chaos/insecurity, but consciously, safety/security/calmness), which somehow supported the theory that the oppositely-direction'd face (aka what the Aux function is) is a cause of stress. And the other I can't remember at all, but my gut/some unclear subconscious nagging is telling me/trying to convince me it was basically the Second Reason above but I can't fully place why (I imagine this is because I can't even identify what this third 'reason' was...).

Too much typing. Closing thoughts time.

---

1. I am not suggesting the only reason humans become stressed is because of stress from or excessive indulgence in the Aux. I am tentatively suggesting, perhaps, that going to the Tert function for 'relief,' which seems to signify an unhealthiness (that is, using/incorporating/whatever the Tert function can be done so where it isn't unhealthy, but turning to it for "relief," is never "healthy" because: see: Dom-Tert loop; when the Tert is used in a legitimate, not-unhealthy, manner, it is used in balance with the Aux - supportingly, constructively, and the usage of both functions are balanced (whereas in Dom-Tert loops, the Aux is sacrificed for the Tert (look, I'm in a loop of repetition right now!))), may be because of stress from/from excessive indulgence in the Aux.

2. Did not click INTP's link he said to where stress came from a complication of Dom/Inf interaction. I consider him to be right in what he says a lot of times... but I find him hard to understand at first and I don't have that level of concentration of clarity in me right now due to my intoxication. I'm just here posting this kooky ass theory for anyone to do with it what they want (if you want me to reply to something, PM me, because I won't be checking back on this thread for a long time.). Also the last post in this thread I read before I began typing this, and the last post I'll read in this thread in a long time, was/is post #21.

 

[INTP]

...

http://www.jungny.com/carl.jung.193.html

 

[Andy]

The relief function is supposed to be exactly what it means. What if it's providing relief from the dominant, instead of a situation? The dominant is creating the pressure, it is something you are focusing on and trying to solve and enact, but are unable to. Perhaps the goal is to understand the dominant through your other functions. Maybe the dominant is not something you are good at, but more like a puzzle you've personally singled out to solve and now you use the other functions in an attempt to decipher the purpose of the dominant and when you're auxiliary function does not work you use your relief. Maybe we are the problem and we're trying to solve ourselves.

It's late, I apologize for the lofty language. Thoughts?

That's pretty good. What you are describing is essentially a tertiary misfire, that is when it gets in the way rather than being useful.

You are quite correct, when the drives associated with the primary function cannot be easily satisfied it creates a certain pressure that needs to be vented. The relief function can do this, but it usually leads to actions/attitudes that only bring temporary relief while long term problems remain. This is usually called the tertiary temptation.

For an introvert, the doubled up introversion causes an aversion to taking action, causing the person to turn away from their problems rather than face them. This can take the form of being unable to decide what you want (and hence you do nothing) or being so unsure of how to proceed that you give up before you even start.

In an extrovert, the double extroversion createsz a huge drive towards action, but very litle towards thought. This can take the form of leaping in before you've given yourself enough time to think things through, or engaging in constant action as a way to avoid thinking about something. Sort of like getting blind drunk to avoid thinking about your credit card debts.

This aspect of the tertiary tends to open the door for the inferior function to go astray too, like the aforementioned drunk who can't stop thinking about those debts when they are sobber.

Generally, when the primary cannot be satisfied, it is the auxillary that provides the drive that will sort things out. It causes the introvert to break their stasis and the extrovert to pause and face themselves.