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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    [/LIST]Looks like no one tried this one, so I will take a shot at it.
    I didn't read the directions carefully enough and I did them all. (btw is that very J or ver P of me? hmmm) I'd be curious what you thought of my responses. I did my best to represent my thoughts and wonder where they fall on the T-F thingy-ma-giggy.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I didn't read the directions carefully enough and I did them all. (btw is that very J or ver P of me? hmmm) I'd be curious what you thought of my responses. I did my best to represent my thoughts and wonder where they fall on the T-F thingy-ma-giggy.
    You, you, you -- it's all about you, isn't it???! [It's about ME, darnit! me!]

    Well, the instructions were for only self-defined T and F's to answer [each for their representative function]... and since you are playing the ambiguity of the middle ground, I'm not sure how to approach the comments, but I will take a look-see.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia
    Question 1.
    1. T response.
    2. T response.
    3. T response.
    4. F response (involves personal pride, not detached necessity]
    5. F response (personal judgment)
    Edit: T response.

    Question 2.
    1. T response
    2. T response
    3. T response

    Question 3.
    1. T response.
    2. T response.
    3. T response.
    4. T response.

    Question 4.
    1. T response.
    2. T/F response.
    3. F response.
    4. T response.
    Before someone gets pissed at me for how I labeled these, please note that I was focusing on HOW a point was made more than almost the actual content. Some of the items dealt with the impact on people... but they were couched in "impersonal" terminology. If they had been phrased differently, it would have suggested an F paradigm -- many of them seemed to be the "T" approach to "F" issues, which is why I labeled them as T instead of F.

    But maybe I failed to do this in turn -- how does an "F" approach typical "T" issues? Is there a way to distinguish a "T" approaching T issues from an "F" approaching T issues? Do they word things differently? Is there a distinction to be made? Which one(s) of my assignments really should have been labeled "F" even though it tried to approach things from a T point of view?

    Maybe an F can point out the ones where the assignment is actually more uncertain, since that area is unavoidably one of my blind spots.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Default I hate to interrupt, but--

    WOW!

    I'm really happy you folks enjoyed this game! You all did great. Yes, Niffer, what you're doing is recording how you're thinking through the decision and it does slow the process down. Kind of cool to see the thoughts going along, isn't it?

    I'd like to thank some folks for helping me with developing and tuning it: Fortunato, Ivy, and PTGatsby. Kuranes and Sdalek get a mention too, for listening to me ramble about the thing. They all deserve a hand!

    I have some comments and observations, but I will put those in a separate post. (Maybe the comments & observations belong in a separate thread so people can keep playing without interruption?)
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #24
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Default Take-aways from the game

    I'm only picking on people who admitted a known Type, btw. I'm sure I will miss lots of stuff too.

    Feeling
    In general, folks expressing preference for Feeling judging mentioned values, either their own or another's (Alienclock mentions the teacher valuing honesty). In general, Feeling preference considers the personal first or quickyly--is the expert's family doing ok, will the expert be concerned about rejection.

    Sometimes the values system is a little harder to see straight away, which is one reason why I *suspect* Thinking preferrers reject or mistrust values-based arguments. Personal convictions seem to me harder to break into linear arguments, which is what a logic-based decision-maker wants. For example, Cafe mentions cheating being wrong then clarifies why. If Cafe had just said "Cheating is wrong," we would have missed the details ("combination of lying and stealing")--which points to core values of honesty and authenticity--which are words associated with a Feeling preference. These also are very personal and human.

    Thinking
    In general, folks expressing preference for Thinking displayed an interest in measurable things. Even the language is different, a little more "clinical": ratios, ROI, productivity, statistics. More emphasis on competence and bluntly stated as such. Maverick even mentions "principles," which are associated with Thinking preference (just as "values" are more associated with Feeling preference).

    Just based on eye-balling (no serious stats for me today), the Thinking preferrers seem more interested in matters of competence and credibility than do the Feeling preferrers. I'd read that as relating to a metrics somewhere--someone, someplace will be measuring things--and those preferring Thinking would rather cut right to that.

    General observations
    Another thing I notice is that there are no "pure" decision-making processes. Even someone who prefers Thinking will factor in some Feeling judging, either to fine-tune the decision or to adjust the delivery. The same is true for folks who prefer Feeling.

    Other thoughts
    Our sample here isn't very large, but I'm curious if there would be a difference in the descriptions of those who prefer Extraverted Judging versus those who prefer Introverted Judging. Would there be a difference in descriptions from folks whose Dominant Preferred process is Judging versus those whose Dominant Preferred process is Perceiving? Does a Thinking preference lead one to use lists over narrative? I don't know...
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #25
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But maybe I failed to do this in turn -- how does an "F" approach typical "T" issues? Is there a way to distinguish a "T" approaching T issues from an "F" approaching T issues? Do they word things differently? Is there a distinction to be made? Which one(s) of my assignments really should have been labeled "F" even though it tried to approach things from a T point of view?

    Maybe an F can point out the ones where the assignment is actually more uncertain, since that area is unavoidably one of my blind spots.
    I'd be very curious about this as well.

    I have some notes from the class that I found useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacDaid
    Thinkers develop principles from their experiences. Feelers consider whether things are worth living for and develop values from their experiences.

    Thinkers consider the evidence first, then emotions. For Feelers, emotions are facts.

    If Thinkers have learned to value emotions, then they will use emotion in a logical way.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Thinking
    In general, folks expressing preference for Thinking displayed an interest in measurable things. Even the language is different, a little more "clinical": ratios, ROI, productivity, statistics. More emphasis on competence and bluntly stated as such. Maverick even mentions "principles," which are associated with Thinking preference (just as "values" are more associated with Feeling preference).
    I did immediately notice the same thing, as my eyes immediately glaze over when I see anything remotely clinical. And although I wanted to disagree with the whole idea of values being really held up as a feeling preference, it is true that I would have felt very uncomfortable at the prospect of my teacher feeling upset at me.
    Originally Posted by MacDaid
    Thinkers develop principles from their experiences. Feelers consider whether things are worth living for and develop values from their experiences.

    Thinkers consider the evidence first, then emotions. For Feelers, emotions are facts.

    If Thinkers have learned to value emotions, then they will use emotion in a logical way.
    In my answer, I speculated that the student was "mad" at me, the teacher might feel something bad. I speculated that I probably was just "feeling" nerves. So I discounted the "feeling" that I was wholly unprepared for the test. There was no evidence that I was not prepared. Then I ended up thinking that it is probable that I could forfeit all all the work I had done by getting caught cheating. So I did not consider my feelings as facts, but they did play a role in my decision making process. The feelings mattered. But the final decision was based on the facts.

    I think that key difference is simple, thinkers do not consider emotion as much. Thinkers find stats and clinical ratios etc neat and tidy... and proof enough. Thinkers order things differently, and may not place as much weight on emotions... just the facts Ma'am. Meanwhile, I look for a bit more. Emotion is not a fact, however, it is very compelling.

    Both types can be logical, however in f vs t its not a question of logic, its a question of relevance. (example, how relevant are the emotions?)

    Other thoughts
    Our sample here isn't very large, but I'm curious if there would be a difference in the descriptions of those who prefer Extraverted Judging versus those who prefer Introverted Judging. Would there be a difference in descriptions from folks whose Dominant Preferred process is Judging versus those whose Dominant Preferred process is Perceiving? Does a Thinking preference lead one to use lists over narrative? I don't know..
    What the heck is introverted judging? Spare me the facts, I can check those after you give me your personal impression. I will read about it after I have gathered the point, the human story behind it.

    But that sure sounds like fun.

  7. #27
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienclock View Post
    What the heck is introverted judging?
    Introverted Judging would be Ti or Fi. For Introverted Judging Dominant, see your average cuddly INTP, ISTP, INFP, or ISFP. Introverted Judging Auxiliary would be the friendly ENTP, ESTP, ENFP, and ESFP.

    Extraverted Judging would be Te or Fe. Extraverted Judging Dominant would be the fluffy ENTJ, ESTJ, ENFJ, and ESFJ. And Extraverted Judging Auxiliary would be your lovable INTJ, ISTJ, INFJ, and ISFJ.

    It's just algebra.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

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