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ISTP is like INTP?

Lauren Ashley

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I don't know if there has been a thread about this recently, but this is a subject I've been thinking about.

It seems a number of ISTPs I know think they are INTPs, test as INTPs, and/or are perceived as INTPs (doesn't seem the reverse happens as often). This is a distinct type of ISTP, who doesn't fit stereotypical type descriptions of the ISTP as the fearless, adventurous, "cool" person. This type of ISTP is less active physically and more active mentally (although still more physically active than INTP). Many times they are interested in the same topics as INTPs. They are interested in theory, but unlike the INTP tend to be economical in the time they spend on theory and are more practical in their use of it. Also, ISTPs tend to use some Ni, which is more noticeable when you get to know them better. And the ISTP tends to be less talkative than the INTP.

It appears since the dom function of both types are Ti, when either relies heavily on Ti and/or doesn't have as well-developed an extraverted function, they can look quite similar. It's like their secondary function only exists to focus their Ti in certain ways.

Has anyone else noticed this (particularly INTPs and ISTPs)? In what other ways are the two different?
 

Asterion

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I think they are indeed very similar, I find it comforting how nicely my ideologies fit with theirs. Most of the differences I can think of are more enneagram related rather than Ne/Se differences though.
 

Lauren Ashley

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King-Of-Despair, you're INTP right?

In extremes, the two types are quite different. I know more stereotypical athletic ISTPs whose difference from the spacy, scatter-brained INTPs is obvious. You'd never confuse one for the other. But for many, the differences are not so clear.

It seems ISTPs (and ISFPs) can look like Ns quite often and type themselves as such.
 

JocktheMotie

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A lot of this has to do with the abysmal descriptions of Se as being pure hedonism as well as carry over from Keirsey's SP temperament description. Heavy Ti ISTPs will correspondingly be more Fe antagonistic and more accepting of Ni tertiary perception "guiding" Ti's gaze and judgments. They'll bring a technical precision to ideas and "nuts to bolts" rigor to fleshing them out that INTPs will at times gloss over and forget about. Telling the difference will be extremely difficult. I think the best way would to go beyond MBTI and look to something like interaction styles, INTPs are behind the scenes while ISTPs are chart the course, tending to be more directive and quicker situational thinkers.

[MENTION=88]ptgatsby[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION] are great examples of these ISTPs.
 

Randomnity

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I honestly think it's a product of really crappy ISTP descriptions online. I thought I was INTP for years because I didn't identify with being a mechanic or a fighter pilot. Now I don't really feel much in common with a lot of INTPs, usually their Ti has a very different flavour. Then again, I also don't really identify much with the more extreme S ISTPs either. Somewhere in the middle.
 

Lauren Ashley

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And what is your type, Jock? Have you decided?

Telling the difference will be extremely difficult. I think the best way would to go beyond MBTI and look to something like interaction styles, INTPs are behind the scenes while ISTPs are chart the course, tending to be more directive and quicker situational thinkers.

Yes, that's what I've been doing. Or at least not looking at the traditional descriptions and notes of INTPs vs ISTPs. And watching my relationships with both types -- the way I interact with each/the effect each has on me is noticeably different. ISTPs are slightly more personable, at least to me, even though some can be rough and argumentative.

[MENTION=88]ptgatsby[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION] are great examples of these ISTPs.

Oh so Orangey has decided on a type? I need to catch up. :) But then, I would choose INTJ as an alternative type for her before INTP; must be the Ni.

On the forum, the member "?" (question mark) comes to mind, but I don't know if he still posts.

I honestly think it's a product of really crappy ISTP descriptions online.

True. Someone who is very familiar with ISTPs should write a better description of them. Most of the descriptions I've seen don't apply to a huge chunk of ISTPs I know.

Plus, there is this whole idea that S types aren't interested in theory and in my experience, that's not really true.

Now I don't really feel much in common with a lot of INTPs, usually their Ti has a very different flavour.

Like how? Can you elaborate?
 

Totenkindly

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[MENTION=4869]Lauren Ashley[/MENTION]:

Yeah, gleaning from your OP, I've noticed these things in my interactions that mirror your comments:

- Interested in theory but tend to be more focused on the practical than the purely theoretical. This can pertain to both the way the situation is "logic'ed" through as well as topical matter. (INTPs can get caught up in some very fanciful speculation, but I've seen ISTPs lean more towards info with practical use, including political and economic theory, etc., and getting bored/annoyed with purely speculative crap that most INTPs seem to eat up. Shows like Star Trek seem to be more an INTP staple than an ISTP staple, as well.)

- ISTPs exhibit aspects of Ni, I've noticed the dom-tert loop easily INTPs and ISTPs .... INTPs actually can become attached to their little safe nest from which they think and can also defend ideas of theirs out of precedence (they like the familiarity), while ISTPs tend to protect their thinking by expressing more wariness of people's potential ulterior motives.

- ISTP tends to be less talkative than the INTP... not that both can't be terse, but ISTP is "leaner," typically.

It's like their secondary function only exists to focus their Ti in certain ways.

Well, yes, it determines what sort of data is acceptable to dump into the hopper, which then focuses their Ti in certain directions.
 

Randomnity

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I'm not sure I really can elaborate much.....their thinking process just seems alien and bizarre sometimes. It might just be the more immature ones, since I definitely relate more to the ones in their late 20s-30s, particularly the female ones. The teenage male INTP is something that is bizarre to me, even looking back on myself as a teenager.

IRL I relate more to INTJs, maybe even INFJs, than to INTPs, although not so much here on the forum. Maybe it's just the ones I've met.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Hi Jennifer, I'm glad you stopped by. I want to pick your brain!

- Interested in theory but tend to be more focused on the practical than the purely theoretical. This can pertain to both the way the situation is "logic'ed" through as well as topical matter. (INTPs can get caught up in some very fanciful speculation, but I've seen ISTPs lean more towards info with practical use, including political and economic theory, etc.

Exactly. That and really data-driven subjects like stats.

- ISTPs exhibit aspects of Ni, I've noticed the dom-tert loop easily INTPs and ISTPs .... INTPs actually can become attached to their little safe nest from which they think and can also defend ideas of theirs out of precedence (they like the familiarity), while ISTPs tend to protect their thinking by expressing more wariness of people's potential ulterior motives.

Yes, yes, it's like an Ni-dom type. I am always surprised when I see this from ISTPs, and feel put upon that they are so suspicious of me. I wonder if that's what I put people through in daily life... How awful. :)

Well, yes, it determines what sort of data is acceptable to dump into the hopper, which then focuses their Ti in certain directions.

But why can we (or should I say, I) never really "see" it? Isn't it supposed to show up when they are extraverting?

I can definitely see Ne or Se in ExxPs and the typical IxTPs. But with these types I only get a faint sense that it's there, lost among sky-high Ti -- it's almost like they extravert Ti, if that makes sense.
 

Nomenclature

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I don't really know what to say; with the ISTP, generally, actions speak louder than words. With the INTP, the pen is mightier than the sword.

Most of my friends are ENTP's or INTP's though (statistically possible because I go to an engineering school).

A lot of this has to do with the abysmal descriptions of Se as being pure hedonism as well as carry over from Keirsey's SP temperament description.

This. In spite of being different temperaments, they use the same function, yeah?

They are interested in theory, but unlike the INTP tend to be economical in the time they spend on theory and are more practical in their use of it.

They tend to specialize in areas where they can use their keen present-tense awareness of sensory cues to bolster their natural ability to deconstruct and solve structural puzzles: ISTPs are often involved with auto mechanics, building/repairing electronics, designing and building architecture, performing or recording music, and so on--anything where they can get their hands on it and figure out for themselves how it works, then use that to make it do something interesting or exciting.
 

Totenkindly

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But why can we (or should I say, I) never really "see" it? Isn't it supposed to show up when they are extraverting?

I can definitely see Ne or Se in ExxPs and the typical IxTPs. But with these types I only get a faint sense that it's there, lost among sky-high Ti -- it's almost like they extravert Ti, if that makes sense.

I know what you mean, I've experienced that as well.

I think it's mostly just a matter of degree, within the natural variability of the type range. Some IxTPs will interact within their aux as well as accept information through it -- it's a two-way pipeline. Whereas some others just take in data through it but express themselves more via their primary, so the aux is kind of "transparent" within the process.

I guess my question here is, when you mention extraverting, are you talking about IRL face to face, or do you mean extraverting via writing? (I think it's much easier for IxTPs to express Ti in writing.)
 

Lauren Ashley

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[MENTION=11384]Nomenclature[/MENTION],

with the ISTP, generally, actions speak louder than words. With the INTP, the pen is mightier than the sword.

But what if the ISTP isn't very action-oriented? These ISTPs don't do a whole lot physically.
---

Oh, and another thing I've noticed -- ISTPs tend to come to their conclusions quicker than INTPs, no? I wouldn't see they're mentally quicker or smarter in general, but I guess because of the Se they are quicker on the draw. Of course this has its downsides in that they sometimes jump to obviously false conclusions.
 

Totenkindly

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Oh, and another thing I've noticed -- ISTPs tend to come to their conclusions quicker than INTPs, no? I wouldn't see they're mentally quicker or smarter in general, but I guess because of the Se they are quicker on the draw. Of course this has its downsides in that they sometimes jump to obviously false conclusions.

I think their considerations are more practical and decisions more apt to be expressed concretely. INTPs tend to be happy with just thinking about something without necessarily expressing it externally.

Also, they exclude many potential avenues of thought that look whimsical to them but that an INTP would take more seriously.
 

Fluffywolf

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Oh, and another thing I've noticed -- ISTPs tend to come to their conclusions quicker than INTPs, no? I wouldn't see they're mentally quicker or smarter in general, but I guess because of the Se they are quicker on the draw. Of course this has its downsides in that they sometimes jump to obviously false conclusions.

Yes, INTP's like to keep their options open and won't easily subject to any conclusion unless they feel they have explored all angles.. That stems from their Ne and is not of ISTP's. An ISTP can reach a conclusion more easily.

If A equals B minus X, B is not neccesarily greater than A. But an ISTP would reason that without any other information, there is a decent chance that this is true and it is practical to assume that it is if this allows the ISTP to continue with their reasoning.. An INTP would not want to submit to such reasoning for the off chance that it isn't so, not caring about the practicality of the situation, but more about the actual truth of the problem.
 

Lauren Ashley

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when you mention extraverting, are you talking about IRL face to face, or do you mean extraverting via writing? (I think it's much easier for IxTPs to express Ti in writing.)

Both.

It probably comes out more in writing, but it's there in face-to-face interaction as well, e.g. when they are explaining something. They seem to use Ti to express themselves in general. It's hard to explain, but it's almost Te-like. Te in my mind is like steps on a staircase or bricks in a building -- step by step. And that's what it seems like to me.
 

Nomenclature

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But what if the ISTP isn't very action-oriented? These ISTPs don't do a whole lot physically.
I myself am really push-and-pull between doing everything and doing nothing, so maybe you're not getting the whole picture... HOWEVER, I know an ISTP who hadn't left the house in months one time, which BOGGLES my mind. In his own words, "I'll always be bored whether I'm out of the house or not."

Habitual creature in physical comfort, not quite the same as the image of the "sensation junkie" ISTP, possibly dopamine-deficient. Again, I think descriptions make ISTP's out to be more extroverted (and by this, I mean Se-using) than they really are.

Oh, and another thing I've noticed -- ISTPs tend to come to their conclusions quicker than INTPs, no? I wouldn't see they're mentally quicker or smarter in general, but I guess because of the Se they are quicker on the draw. Of course this has its downsides in that they sometimes jump to obviously false conclusions.
I GUESS you could say that Se mainly picks up information from the present, while Ne is omnipresent and there will always be more possibilities... some of which are rendered "why the #^$% does this matter?" to the ISTP.
 

The Ü™

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Cognitively, INTPs and ISTPs are virtually identical, but I think that behaviorally, being different temperaments, that's where you'll notice the difference.

And I don't think ISTPs have to be physical types, but they are more oriented to the present and are doers. A lot of comedians, for example, I think, are ISTPs, which means they use the same analytical skills as an INTP would, but they use those skills in a way that's more true to their temperament; making an impact in the here-and-now.
 

ICUP

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I honestly think it's a product of really crappy ISTP descriptions online.

I would tend to agree. Most of them seem to place us in the "mechanic" box..... I've never been crazy-interested in mechanics, and I've never been good in athletics. I would rather be studying or playing a video game. I think the writers should rephrase those descriptions, because they left me confused at first.....
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Never really thought I was INTP, but I did get INTJ when I first took the tests. I'm 50/50 S/N and 50/50 P/J. I actually use Te stuff often, irl, but I don't really enjoy it, so you aren't going to see me use it here often lol......

I do identify more with INTP than I do most types, but I don't think anyone is going to mistake me for an INTP. ;) I think in my case, I feel comfortable with INTP's because they were in a lot of my classes from 6th to 12th grade, and I suppose they might've "rubbed off" a bit..... I got used to them.

I agree that I am action-oriented, as in, I learn through acting, not reading. I can read, but until I DO it, I'm not sure. I love tutorials, instruction guides, manuals, and references.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Yes, INTP's like to keep their options open and won't easily subject to any conclusion unless they feel they have explored all angles.. That stems from their Ne and is not of ISTP's.

I don't want to make it seem as though ISTPs don't consider all options. I think they do and they can be indecisive at first (at least that's the vibe I get -- it's not expressed openly). But they reach conclusions faster and more decisively. They do not change their opinions readily.
 

Totenkindly

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It probably comes out more in writing, but it's there in face-to-face interaction as well, e.g. when they are explaining something. They seem to use Ti to express themselves in general. It's hard to explain, but it's almost Te-like. Te in my mind is like steps on a staircase or bricks in a building -- step by step. And that's what it seems like to me.

I would guess it to be Ti+Se, there's a concreteness to it that you are perceiving, and a practicality.

INTP speak is almost of "pure logic" form, of the abstracted kind. It's detached from concrete objects and expressed in more ethereal terms.

Kind of reading a math calculation with all the numbers in place and thus anchored in reality, versus reading algebraic equations where nothing is plugged in and the terms used are just loose generalities.

(I dunno, I'm still trying to find the right words!)

Nomenclature said:
HOWEVER, I know an ISTP who hadn't left the house in months one time, which BOGGLES my mind. In his own words, "I'll always be bored whether I'm out of the house or not."

That seems rather unusual to me as well.

I would find it easier to picture an INTP up in the ivory tower, detached from the rest of the world and abstracting everything, than an ISTP doing so. (I think I see more the push-pull that you describe elsewhere in your post.)
 
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