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  1. #81
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    1. I give no shits if my answer is anyone else's answer. The only time it matters is when 2+ of us are discussing the thing. I'll start paying attention to how many types there are "objectively" when the science behind it matures enough, but even my great, great grandchildren will be dead by then.

    2. With respect to Judging Fi'ers and so on -- seems to me that it's a matter of what's actually of use to represent in a model. Do we need to differentiate INFPs who have Judging tendencies from those who don't? Yeah, it's a worthy idea if there's a huge variability within INFPs (and other types) that can be explained by introducing it. Do we need another whole dichotomy to tell us whether a person likes to dip their fries in ketchup or not? No, but we could do that, too.

    Kinda-sorta like how the Japanese color "ao" doesn't differentiate between blue and green, since a distinction wasn't seen as necessary. (Similar with a lot of other languages, too.) Separating the two introduces more complexity (one/two additional words) but it's worth it if distinguishing between blue and green is useful. Is it useful/necessary to subdivide green into, say, neon, xanadu, lime, olive, forest, jade, etc.? For everyday use, probably not so much.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
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    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bush Did 9/11 View Post
    1. I give no shits if my answer is anyone else's answer. The only time it matters is when 2+ of us are discussing the thing. I'll start paying attention to how many types there are "objectively" when the science behind it matures enough, but even my great, great grandchildren will be dead by then.

    2. With respect to Judging Fi'ers and so on -- seems to me that it's a matter of what's actually of use to represent in a model. Do we need to differentiate INFPs who have Judging tendencies from those who don't? Yeah, it's a worthy idea if there's a huge variability within INFPs (and other types) that can be explained by introducing it. Do we need another whole dichotomy to tell us whether a person likes to dip their fries in ketchup or not? No, but we could do that, too.

    Kinda-sorta like how the Japanese color "ao" doesn't differentiate between blue and green, since a distinction wasn't seen as necessary. (Similar with a lot of other languages, too.) Separating the two introduces more complexity (one/two additional words) but it's worth it if distinguishing between blue and green is useful. Is it useful/necessary to subdivide green into, say, neon, xanadu, lime, olive, forest, jade, etc.? For everyday use, probably not so much.
    If all you want to do is type someone, then it is as I said in my "MBTI Destroyed!" thread - more distinctions makes for an unwieldy (and unpopular) system.

    In that thread I'm taking it to the level of actual psychology of neurosis. It's true that I did (with the help of Fudjack) theoretically destroy the MBTI, and also by finding an Fi-dominant in reality who prefers Judging. I've been talking about this since, oh, around 2011. But Karen Horney discusses neurosis and that's my basis for the new thread. Jung does not go into pathology in Psychological Types, except maybe in very vaguely put terms about a Shadow which is bordering on mystical. It's really just mysticism combined with psychology. Karen Horney is more down to earth, the theory is more approachable. It is not loaded down with assumptions and preposterous terminology such as "collective consciousness."

    And really, the best way to overcome neurosis is to get out there and apply what's in your heart, which is the part of your psyche that gets lost when self-confidence is lost.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."
    I'm an extrovert trapped within an introverted soul.

  3. #83
    Damn American Cowboy Reborn Relic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    This isn't about functions, it's about J and P as independent variables in the type nomenclature.
    Alright. Well, I agree with you on some level that there's no reason that Fi-doms can't be Js in the sense you're describing. I believe that Jung would've called them Js specifically, in fact.

    Whether it in particular is a distinction we need to find relevant, I don't know. But you could make it.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

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    “Be careful, lest in casting out your demon you exorcise the best thing in you.”

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    I have a Johari again

  4. #84
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn Relic View Post
    Alright. Well, I agree with you on some level that there's no reason that Fi-doms can't be Js in the sense you're describing. I believe that Jung would've called them Js specifically, in fact.

    Whether it in particular is a distinction we need to find relevant, I don't know. But you could make it.
    We who?
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."
    I'm an extrovert trapped within an introverted soul.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I have found someone on Facebook who identifies as an Fi-dominant with a preference for Judging. She identifies as a type 4.
    You wanna more examples? I'm jungian Ti-dom, MBTI TJ type. In MBTI I do not identify very well with Ti-dom TP, not with the aspects that go with high intuition/Ne, let alone the aspects that describe a Perceiving dominant...

    Then. I know some (three so far) Socionics EII-Fi's who'd be definitely J in MBTI. For more concrete data, I actually had one of them look at Step II and he was 100% Judging there. ...I know a Socionics EII-Ne that fits P and INFP in MBTI, on the other hand. He's extremely Ne though (yes, still an introvert).

  6. #86
    Senior Member erg's Avatar
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    Socionics subtype does correlate somewhat with MBTI J/P, but it can also not correlate. There are IEI-Ni's that are INFJ, and LII-Ti's that are INTP for example.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erg View Post
    Socionics subtype does correlate somewhat with MBTI J/P, but it can also not correlate. There are IEI-Ni's that are INFJ, and LII-Ti's that are INTP for example.
    I did explain that somewhere else, how INTp = INTJ, but ENTJ = ENTj.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."
    I'm an extrovert trapped within an introverted soul.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by erg View Post
    Socionics subtype does correlate somewhat with MBTI J/P, but it can also not correlate. There are IEI-Ni's that are INFJ, and LII-Ti's that are INTP for example.
    Agreed - I wasn't trying to say it correlated 100%. For example, I definitely don't type as P in MBTI.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I did explain that somewhere else, how INTp = INTJ, but ENTJ = ENTj.
    Also often ISFJ = ISFj, etc.

  9. #89
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I came to this forum to discuss personality types, and found there was an agenda preceding me. There has been a push against the MBTI and toward a return to cognitive functions.

    I believe there are good, logical reasons to be against the MBTI, and I have stated those reasons here on many occasions - pretty much, every chance I get. But if I have any agenda, it is to use reason in solving problems. Compare reason to the whiny badgering of those who believe they have found the Answer in JCF.

    Thinking you have found the Answer is not a problem for me. Everybody has their own answer. But that's just it - it's YOUR answer. I will debate with you logically over the validity of your answer. The fact that I only get one-liners and bigotry in return is evidence that your Answer is neither reasonable nor logical. So I often feel like a pet owner walking into a meeting of animal rights activists.

    And really, your Answer is not reasonable. Jung was no scientist, he was some kind of modern "Prophet." Logic, as he employed it, was only a tool of some subconscious "reality." And so he created a religion or dogma of the subconscious that is not established in fact. Jung's logic is coherent enough, but it does not correspond to reality.

    The main problem with Jung's theory is that he moved from cognitive functions
    to personality types without regard to any scientific study whatsoever. Such a "Genius" as Jung apparently didn't need it, all of his Answers came from "somewhere" - God, taking the form of the collective unconsciousness, who has granted him omniscience by whispering into his subconscious "ear." The information came from some vast pool of collected wisdom hovering around somewhere in the aether, waiting for just the right kind of mind to extract the Truths lying therein. The result is merely a cultish following of those who don't dare question the Master.

    But these intellectual fads tend to just come and go.

    So far I haven't seen anybody who has spiritually profited from JCF. I've seen some dilettantish types hanging around who barely understand the words they are spouting into their keyboards. All I can say to you is that personality typing is not the same as cognitive function typing. And anyway, JCF is very reductionistic. I also know you don't know or care what that term means or what it implies about your rigid mindset.

    Personality typing is about the whole character of the person, not these few cognitive functions you can barely manage to identify, if at all. For us, the clues to personality are always external to the person, not hidden in the secret recesses of their minds.
    KILL THE INFIDEL
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  10. #90
    Senior Member erg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by existence View Post
    Agreed - I wasn't trying to say it correlated 100%. For example, I definitely don't type as P in MBTI.
    The answer could be in the system of DCHN subtypes The DCNH subtype model . Dominant and normalizing subtypes could be more J-ish, while creative and harmonizing could be more P-ish. Or perhaps there is not direct correlation. J-P seems the most problematic dichotomy. Another answer could be enneagram type.

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