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Thread: JCF Isn't The Answer

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    The only way to gain insight into someone is to watch their behaviour since most people aren't terribly self-aware and say a lot of things they either want to believe or they feel they'll get maximum mileage out of. In observations, a personality pattern will emerge.
    The behavior you see is through your own lens. Ten people could witness a person's behavior through their individual lenses, resulting in ten different opinions of what the behavior means.

    As far as trying to type someone else, it's easier to say what they aren't than what they are. But trying to type someone else is more for fun or interest sake, than to be taken terribly seriously.
    You can only "see" what your lens allows you to see. You can kid yourself into believing what you think is there, actually isn't. And what you think isn't there, actually is. None of us are omniscient - not even you. You are just as capable of self-deception as anyone else.

    As for your last sentence, ironically, you're one of the people who takes MBTI far too seriously. It was you who complained about having such a hard time communicating in a world of sensors, and why shouldn't "they" have to adapt. That is a prime example of using type as an excuse for one's own foibles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I'm just as leery about simulatedworld's JCF profiles for the same reason: they're based off of anecdotes and a collective of overarching patterns in behavior.
    All viewed through the confines of his own lens. That was my point to Jenaphor.
    The scary thing about Sim is, you could flat out tell him something wasn't true about yourself, and he couldn't adapt to the new knowledge. He'd just ignore it or pretend it wasn't true.

    I recall telling an ENT (Ear, Nose and Throat) I had bilateral symptoms with my type of sinusitis.
    "That's impossible," she said.

    I fired her on the spot.

    Honestly, I think it's extremely peculiar that you examine personality by the vocabulary one uses and the way they dress.
    Don't forget the car you drive and what you eat for breakfast.
    It's crucial, when typing people.
    The east and the west are mine, the north and the south are mine. All seems beautiful to me.
    — Walt Whitman

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The behavior you see is through your own lens. Ten people could witness a person's behavior through their individual lenses, resulting in ten different opinions of what the behavior means.

    You can only "see" what your lens allows you to see. You can kid yourself into believing what you think is there, actually isn't. And what you think isn't there, actually is. None of us are omniscient - not even you. You are just as capable of self-deception as anyone else.
    Using your own logic, you're viewing me through your own subjective lens. Why the need for all the personalised insults?

    As for your last sentence, ironically, you're one of the people who takes MBTI far too seriously. It was you who complained about having such a hard time communicating in a world of sensors, and why shouldn't "they" have to adapt. That is a prime example of using type as an excuse for one's own foibles.
    The thread you mentioned was about children, not adults or even teenagers. I specifically stated that most intuitives have adapted and some have excelled. It is a sensors world so there really is no choice but to do so. And quite frankly again, to use your own logic, this is all viewed through your own subjective lens.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Why the need for all the personalised insults?
    There is nothing in here that is a personal insult:

    The behavior you see is through your own lens. Ten people could witness a person's behavior through their individual lenses, resulting in ten different opinions of what the behavior means.

    You can only "see" what your lens allows you to see. You can kid yourself into believing what you think is there, actually isn't. And what you think isn't there, actually is. None of us are omniscient - not even you. You are just as capable of self-deception as anyone else.
    And yes, you were complaining about having to adapt your communication.
    Abstract and concrete language was brought up.

    By the way, your tactic of pretending people are "insulting you" in order to take the focus off the discussion, is getting old.
    The east and the west are mine, the north and the south are mine. All seems beautiful to me.
    — Walt Whitman

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Who views it as an "Answer"? An answer to what?
    I just view it as a categorization system of thought processes based on intangible qualities percieved in people. Obviously, there is no literal "Ti" process in the brain. Obviously, there is no foolproof way of determining a person's type, including your own.

    I consider it to be like categorizing other human traits. Even visible ones aren't always agreed upon. For example, there are 5 basic hair color categories: red, brown, blond & black. We all know there are more than 5 hair colors in the world. There are infinite colors. However, most of us can identify a category that fits our hair color best, and determine one for others. Having very distinct categories makes it easier to choose one, instead of being stuck between two similar categories with only small, nuanced differences. Occasionally, you will look at someone & see dark blond hair, but someone else sees light brown hair, and so now the best category for their hair color is very much a matter of individual perspective. I see personality typology in a similar vein. The best type match can be a matter of perspective, and some people don't fit as neatly into one category as others. That doesn't mean the whole system is entirely useless, it's just limited in what it can describe.
    You went from "I don't see it as the Answer" to "that doesn't mean the system is entirely useless." If that summed up my argument, it would be a complete non sequitur. But it's not an argument I made.

    I know that what it comes down to here is that my main message is too abstract. I have found that terms such as "non sequitur" simply whoosh. In any attempt to criticize a comment's logic, the commenter simply presses the mental reset button and repeats the same argument.

    I don't know why you feel attacked or something, you're not on my plonk list, or even potential plonk list.
    "But you forget that there is one value that is greater than all others: human freedom. Because no matter how perfectly you set the world up for humanity, they will always rebel simply to exert their own selves. You cannot win."

  5. #35
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post



    All viewed through the confines of his own lens. That was my point to Jenaphor.
    The scary thing about Sim is, you could flat out tell him something wasn't true about yourself, and he couldn't adapt to the new knowledge. He'd just ignore it or pretend it wasn't true.

    I recall telling an ENT (Ear, Nose and Throat) I had bilateral symptoms with my type of sinusitis.
    "That's impossible," she said.

    I fired her on the spot.



    Don't forget the car you drive and what you eat for breakfast.
    It's crucial, when typing people.
    The reason I'm leery of simulatedworld's theories isn't necessarily that they're relative, it's that I simply disagree with a few of them in terms of how he describes the actual cognitive processing, more specifically his interpretation of Ni, Se, and especially Fi. Granted, he has come quite a ways since his days of Fi bashing.

    Whether he actually says that his anecdotes are the cut and dry effects of the functions, my memory fails to remind me. What's more worrying are those that read and either misunderstand him because they're out of touch with his sources, or adopt it without scrutiny. We both know that he's privy of Jung and Lenore Thomson, and his views are both his greatest strengths and his greatest weakness. Insofar as his actual character, it disturbs me that he's not always striving for the truth. But then again, I can't say that any of us are consistent in that arena. He's just exceedingly brash about it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The behavior you see is through your own lens. Ten people could witness a person's behavior through their individual lenses, resulting in ten different opinions of what the behavior means.

    You can only "see" what your lens allows you to see. You can kid yourself into believing what you think is there, actually isn't. And what you think isn't there, actually is. None of us are omniscient - not even you. You are just as capable of self-deception as anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    There is nothing in here that is a personal insult:
    The bolded are very personalised insults, in their assumption of omnipotence, as well as generalised personal tone. Don't try to weasel out of it once...again.
    And yes, you were complaining about having to adapt your communication.
    Abstract and concrete language was brought up.
    We were discussing children and needing to adapt. Spinning it doesn't change the reality of the thread. And to bring it up months later out of context is really odd and obsessive.

    By the way, your tactic of pretending people are "insulting you" in order to take the focus off the discussion, is getting old.
    And your personal insults are getting beyond old.

  7. #37
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    You went from "I don't see it as the Answer" to "that doesn't mean the system is entirely useless." If that summed up my argument, it would be a complete non sequitur. But it's not an argument I made.

    I know that what it comes down to here is that my main message is too abstract. I have found that terms such as "non sequitur" simply whoosh. In any attempt to criticize a comment's logic, the commenter simply presses the mental reset button and repeats the same argument.

    I don't know why you feel attacked or something, you're not on my plonk list, or even potential plonk list.
    She said she feels attacked?

    Listen man, I don't know what game you're playing, or if you're even playing a game, but I will say that you're coming very close to being inflammatory. I'm not offended. I'm just making this clear to anyone who might be reading, including you if you happen to be oblivious to it.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    The bolded are very personalised insults.
    I'll say it one more time - pretending there are "personal insults" to avoid the discussion is getting old.
    The east and the west are mine, the north and the south are mine. All seems beautiful to me.
    — Walt Whitman

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'll say it one more time - pretending there are "personal insults" to avoid the discussion is getting old.
    Nice way to try to avoid personal responsibility for your behaviours. We both know what you're doing, weaseling, as usual.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Nice way to try to avoid personal responsibility for your behaviours. We both know what you're doing, weaseling, as usual.
    This has now become silly.
    The east and the west are mine, the north and the south are mine. All seems beautiful to me.
    — Walt Whitman

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