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MBTI and children

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
How much do we change between childhood and adulthood?

I first took the MBTI (I believe it was the Real Thing) in the 9th grade. The result was INFP. Then I took Kiersey's test in Please Understand Me II about three years ago and the result was ISFJ. I've taken so many online tests and such since then, and gotten so many different results (INFP, INFJ, ISFJ, ISFP, and even INTP once) that I think I'm ruined for finding out my "real" type. I can tell what the questions are answering so I'm sure I steer the test somewhat.

Recently I've been trying to think back to myself as a child, and see what I can remember about my temperament then, hoping it'll provide a clue to what my temperament might actually be. I was a bright kid with a fairly active imagination that I frequently got lost in. I played a lot of "office" and "house," and pretended my apple juice was brandy (my parents were teetotallers, not sure where I got that idea). I messed around in the creek and dug in the backyard watching ants and bugs, wondering what life was like for them. Magnolia trees were teepees for domestic play. Evidently I brought home a lot of injured animals, and my parents couldn't stand not to help me tend to them either until they could be set free, or until they died.

In middle school and high school, I became a bit of a social activist, probably inspired by the Quaker school I went to at the time. We made meals for the homeless shelter, and I always hoped that the people who ate them would feel a little less shitty because there were people who cared for them without ever even meeting them.

My mother swears that I was just like my daughter, who I think is probably an NF of some variety-- but she's more clearly an NF than I was. Most of her play revolves around being a fairy, witch, or some other mythical creature. She's hyper-aware of people's feelings and intentions, as I was, but much moreso. She has always been more cerebral and less kinetic than other children. She could be reasoned with as a toddler, at least most of the time.

How much do you think we change? Is a child who shows NF qualities likely to grow up and be an adult NF? I tend to think that people are who they are, and habits and activities can change, but the underlying temperament does not. I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
MMTIC

Excellent question.

(I'm breaking this into parts.)

You might be interested to know the MMTIC (Murphy-Meisgeier Type Indicator for Children) has just been revised. This is a MBTI-based tool that is geared for folks with lower reading levels. (I *think* MBTI is directed towards a reading level of Grade 8-10, but I might be wrong.) The questions are also age-appropriate. (As with any MBTI translation, there are multiple layers required to translate.)

For example, questions on the MMTIC would say things like: When you come home from school, you would rather A) go play, then do your homework or B) Do your homework, then go play.

MMTIC is used in counseling situations.
 

meshou

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
238
MBTI Type
INXP
I tested as INTJ at 10 (I had a college reading level), and again at 14. Strong T, strong J.

19, INFP, very strong P, mild F. Now, I test slightly T, still fairly strong P.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Traditional Type Development theory

According to traditional Type theory, during infancy you would have no preferred functions. Your dominant preferred function would develop around the toddler age. Your secondary function would develop around 10-ish. Your tertiary would develop in your 20s-30s, and your inferior would begin to develop later (40+, if ever).

When I say "develop," I mean "having some conscious control over." When a function is undeveloped, it is still there, but subconscious and uncontrollable. As each function emerges, you will continue to develop control over the "older" functions--but the later arrivals will remain in a less-developed state.

This is one of the reasons why it's important to understand where someone is in their life when working with type verification. For example, if you are in your teens, you would not be as facile with your tertiary function as you would with your secondary. If you are in your 40's-50's, you may be exploring your inferior process.

(There's more to this, but I will stop here. You get the idea.)

My suspicion, based on what I know of type development, is that between the ages of 10 and 17 you *should* be able to identify both a primary and a secondary process, which is sufficient to form a type hypothesis. if you can't reliably identify a secondary process, then you can still work off Jung's original personality theory (where he discusses a secondary process but does not suggest how to identify it).
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Every time I've taken the cognitive processes test (which I imagine I'm less "spoiled" on since I don't have a good grasp on them like I do on the four dichotomies) I get FiNe as my dominant and secondary. Wish I could remember the tertiary.

I would say my daughter's a big-time NeFi. It's hard to tell which is dominant, though-- I say NeFi because I am about 75% sure she's an extravert.

My son's a toddler. I had not bothered to really think about him in type terms yet since most toddlers are probably Se-oriented to some degree (with a few notable exceptions, like my daughter, who was always more interested in ideas than the world around her).
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Type: both innate and environmental

A good question to add is: Where does type come from?

Jung theorized that type was innate. It's something you're born with, like handedness. This seems to be supported by research that type is somewhat hereditary and that there are physiologic associations. (For example, iris structures, brain processing, etc.)

Jung also suggested that normal type development can be either supported or stunted. For example, before the 1970s, many schools forced students to write with their right hands. (My sister, a leftie, recalls having her hand smacked for writing with her preferred hand; I've read similar stories from other people as well.)

If you are supported in your natural type development, well and good.

But perhaps you are naturally INFP and you're raised in the States. The US is recognized as having a strong social bias toward ESTJ. (If anyone wondered why ESTJ is on the left side of a MBTI results form, this is why.) You're going to feel pressure to behave in the "socially-accepted" manners--to *exhibit* ESTJ behaviors. These behaviors will feel as natural to you as writing with your non-preferred hand.

If you are not supported in developing your preferred functions, they will atrophy while you focus on developing your non-preferred functions. The end result will be that you will not have a differentiated function that you can use with confidence. This is why traditional type theorists will say that stunted type development is psychologically violent.

Non-differentiated functions are not good things, especially when you have no control over them. Imagine never knowing if you should rely on your values for decision or if you should rely on principles. You could flip-flop endlessly and make bad decisions--if you ever made a decision. Or perhaps you can't control whether you are focusing on the task immediately at hand or speculating on what you're planning to do tomorrow. You need all functions, but you also need control to use them appropriately.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Does Type Change?

Again, according to traditional type theory, your type does not change over time. Nor can you consciously develop less-preferred (3rd/4rd) functions by will alone.

You can learn behaviors associated with your less-preferred functions. By practicing these behaviors, you can develop aspects of the less-preferred functions.

For example, an INFJ whose inferior (4th) function is Extraverted Sensing could exercise the 3rd and 4th functions by knitting or doing other handicrafts, which require attending to detail and being in the moment. Does that mean the type is changing? Would that INFJ be happy as an LPN, which requires constant attending to detail and staying focused on the moment? No. But the INFJ adds to the toolbox new ways of working with the world, and that is valuable indeed.

This is an important distinction, btw, especially when considering a career change.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Every time I've taken the cognitive processes test (which I imagine I'm less "spoiled" on since I don't have a good grasp on them like I do on the four dichotomies) I get FiNe as my dominant and secondary. Wish I could remember the tertiary.

I would say my daughter's a big-time NeFi. It's hard to tell which is dominant, though-- I say NeFi because I am about 75% sure she's an extravert.

My son's a toddler. I had not bothered to really think about him in type terms yet since most toddlers are probably Se-oriented to some degree (with a few notable exceptions, like my daughter, who was always more interested in ideas than the world around her).

FiNeSxTe

The tertiary is "traditionally" opposite in direction (attitude) and function from the secondary. BUT newer research suggests that it may not follow that neat algebra so reliably, so we leave off the attitude.

The inferior is ALWAYS opposite in attitude and function from the dominant.

My guess is that your toddler is too young to type--he's probably not differentiated. Wait a few years. You may be on the mark with your daughter. I don't recall the age of your daughter--I'll leave all that in your hands. ;)
 
Last edited:

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
According to traditional Type theory, during infancy you would have no preferred functions. Your dominant preferred function would develop around the toddler age. Your secondary function would develop around 10-ish. Your tertiary would develop in your 20s-30s, and your inferior would begin to develop later (40+, if ever).

That's the Conventional Wisdom, but I think it's extremely varied, dependent not only upon the person but the environment they are raised in.

For me, I never tried to interfere with my childrens' personality development, yet I had a very good idea of their type (in my head) early on and it was only confirmed as they aged.

ESFP: He spent his first few months of life in the PICU, and even THEN, the nurses would all spend time with HIM on their breaks. He simply was a very engaging, very happy, very enthusiastic baby, and it only got "worse." His Se was thus fully engaged early on; his Fi has been developing in mature direction since he was 9 or so, but he still has a lot of work left to go.

INFJ: We adopted her when she was four. This was my guess based on the first week with her and just how she interacted with me, but I just kept watching her over time and she's got a very "regal" bearing to her. She connects with people deeply and knows how to engage them in a one-on-one basis. You could just tell there was a whole world inside of her. Her Fe instincts kicked in very very noticeably by the time she was seven. The way she radiates kindness and sticks up for the underdog is just incredible; she is also constantly leaving gracious notes for people (something neither I nor my wife do, this behavior is all her own).

INTP: The hardest to figure out. I was very sure he was INxP when he was only a few years old, but wasn't sure about the T/F thing until he got older, maybe around 4-5. This was confirmed when he went to school and interacted with different people and I could see what things he was instinctively critical of. (Stupidity, namely. Everything was judged in regards to whether it was smart or dumb.) What was neat with him was that I saw the Ti-style thought at that age, but he felt very uncreative and really did not stretch himself until maybe he was 11. And suddenly he began to get lots of ideas, and discuss things openly, and the Ne sort of "cut loose." His sense of humor and ability to make a quick retort jumped up too, as part of the Ne thing -- and he is constantly catching me off-guard and making me laugh. As far as following the expected path, he seems the most conforming.

Anyway, this is partly a tangent, but just examples of how I'm not sure how "good" the conventional wisdom is on this. In the last few weeks, I've seen at least one or two other MBTI writers comment on how the functions seem to kick in earlier than expected.
 

meshou

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
238
MBTI Type
INXP
I think strong challenges or traumatic experience can have a fairly profound effect on type, though. If life forces you to quick develop new skills, your type may change a little.

I think that the Big Five characteristics are far more innate than MBTI. I can't say any of those have changed in me, but my MBTI type, I think, probably has.
 

Res Ipsa Loquitur

New member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
55
MBTI Type
ISTJ
I've always tested as an ISTJ but strenght of each has shifted through the years, most definitely due to the different periods of my life when I've taken the test.

Ex: I and E were more equal during college; J more pronounced while I was employed.

I don't have any children but I wonder how much my type/hubby's type will play in theirs, if any.
 

Maverick

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
880
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I was a stereotypical ENTJ as a kid. I was a "model" kid. Got good grades at school, sucked up to the teachers, was always trying to do the right thing, was well organized, would tell others off if they did something "wrong". I had alot of the usual NT interests such as learning about computers, astronomy, science, etc.

During my teenage years, I became a pretty strong rebel. I stopped studying and became confrontational. I thought that if I wanted to look cool I should come off like a "P". Got really bad grades at school. I spent my time thinking about girls and music. I was much more sensitive and disorganized. I was a typical nice guy and was nearly best friends with all the girls... a hopeless romantic! Late teen years I became more introverted. I became very, very laid back.

The very first time I took something similar to the MBTI... the keirsey temperament test... I scored ENFP. I couldn't imagine at the time how I could be a thinker or a judger, as that just seemed like "bad" personality traits I was trying to get rid of. In early 20's I gradually got my T and J back. Was more like an ENTP then... and my J started kicking in gradually. I had the chance to take the official MBTI test and found out in horror I scored ENTJ. I dismissed it and thought the ENTP profile was much more accurate. Then, after leaving it on one side, I gradually started understanding that some of the problems I had been running into all along were typical to my type. There was no doubt about my MBTI type anymore...
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Spoiling MBTI's reliability through retesting

The other issue you brought up was the possibility of spoiling the reliability of the indicator through frequent use or understanding the theory.

My instructor, Gerald MacDaid, recommended never taking the MBTI instrument more than twice. If you are still unclear on a best-fit type, you should work on self-validation. The MBTI may narrow the field of candidates for "best-fit" down from 16 to two or four--that's still better than trying to select from 16! IIRC, part of MacDaid's caution for retesting was based on spoiling the usefulness of the indicator from familiarity.

By the way, the odds of the MBTI returning the exact same type on retest BY CHANCE is 6.25%. The reliability of the MBTI on retest for 4 letters is between 55 - 80%; for 3 letters, the reliability of retest is between 20 - 38%.

The other thing to keep in mind--the scores from MBTI results say more about the indicator than they do about the client. The scores are called "PCIs"--preference clarity indicators. They tell you how sure we are that you have a particular preference.

In fact, practitioners are discouraged from returning the raw scores from an MBTI. Instead, we will provide relative terms such as "Slightly Clear," "Moderately Clear," "Strong," and "Very Clear."

Part of the "spoiling" may also occur from a confusion of how you are versus what you do. See my comments on developing non-preferred functions on how this might affect reliability.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
That's the Conventional Wisdom, but I think it's extremely varied, dependent not only upon the person but the environment they are raised in.
...
Anyway, this is partly a tangent, but just examples of how I'm not sure how "good" the conventional wisdom is on this. In the last few weeks, I've seen at least one or two other MBTI writers comment on how the functions seem to kick in earlier than expected.

I think strong challenges or traumatic experience can have a fairly profound effect on type, though. If life forces you to quick develop new skills, your type may change a little.

:yes: This is why I prefaced with "according to traditional type theory."

I also suspect that the midlife crisis/middle passage is related to the beginnings of control over the inferior process. Midlife crisis can start as early as the mid-30s, especially if there is life-altering stress or other environmental/individual factors. Rules of thumb, not absolutes.

As far as type changing--the traditional view is that type does not change. The wiggle room that is permitted is the concept of "true type."

MBTI Manual said:
The term true type reflects the assumption that every person has an underlying "true" type that may or may not be revealed by a measurement device. As such, the type reported by an individual on the MBTI or in using any other assessment method is always considered to be a hypothesis rather than a "fact."
 

Shimpei

New member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
339
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9
I don't have any children but I wonder how much my type/hubby's type will play in theirs, if any.

My Mom is ESFJ, my Dad is INTP, so total opposites. My brother is INTP and I'm an ISFJ. Probably there's some connection...
 

something boring

New member
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
278
MBTI Type
nnja
Enneagram
4w5
*bump*

I tested INJ as a child. My daughter's results are EFJ. I'm interested to see whether she'll end up with S or N. Either way, she always knows where the car is parked. Together, we can't get through the grocery store without learning something deeply personal about nearly everyone in it. People talk to me a lot, but damn.... she seeks others out, and they talk to her a lot. If I go by myself, one or two people will have walked up and told me all about their day, or asked for help with something. With her, it's like 20. Raising such an extroverted child forces me make contact with planet earth a lot more frequently, which is probably a good thing. All in all, I think I lucked out, since her type will evolve into a person who either speaks my language fluently, or arrives at a similar conclusion, albeit by vastly different means. I know type isn't everything, but theoretically, it seems like it'd be easier to raise (and maintain a close bond with) a child who views the world in a similar way. She has been a remarkably easy child.
 

Johnfloyd6675

New member
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
42
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
8
It's probably possible to design an MBTI-based test for children with consistent, correct-sounding results. From ages 6 to around 12, some sort of personality exists in a child. Then around 13, there's an explosion in a chemical facility located in your underpants, and it takes about 5 years to construct a new personality that lasts more than a week. The inherent unpredictability of adolescent behavior suggests to me that only truly boring people are the same person at 25 as they were at 6.

Of course, they will at some point discover genetic predispositions towards functions and attitudes, and probably some genotypes that, hell or high water, express themselves as a phenotype. But nurture (and the more-important lack thereof) has a hell of a lot of say in what answers a person gives on an MBTI.
 

Valiant

Courage is immortality
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
3,895
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
My memory is fairly good, I remember how I thought, felt and reasoned before I was twelve without any problem.
I was doubtlessly some form of NTJ back then, too. I'm really on the divide between I and E still, as I was then.

It's those years in between twelve/thirteen and my current twenty-three that have varied a lot.
I've been bullied, beaten, heartbroken, educated, broken a few bones, burned myself and generally soaked up stuff while collecting knowledge and learning new sides to life.
I guess you could call those things function development.
But, I came back to the XNTJ fold when I was "done", so to speak.
Of course i'm not entirely done yet. I will need to improve upon Si a lot more and continue learning and maintaining the others.

I've always been Ni-dominant, no question about it. Always strong Te, as well.
On the other hand, I have spent lots of my life acting like almost any types except the bad caricature of the "evil SJs".
I've spent time as: ENTJ, ESTP, ENFP, INTP, ENTP, ENFJ, INFP, INFJ and a bunch of others.
I even have a few ESFJ tendencies in some situations where i'm organizing things.
It's really odd and hard to pin down a type sometimes.
My talents are fairly broad over the whole spectrum, except some Si-related things like sense of direction and learning movement patterns.
My hand-eye coordination is really good though, etc... Freaking strange.
I rule at Se and Si is my real Achilles heel.


Anyway, it can change wildly. Especially if the kid is having a tough time and actually learns from it through transformation.

This very "transformation" is a part of what makes us human in the first place.
While there is always a core of our inner self, the rest is fairly malleable and essentially a place to fill with skills, insight and knowledge.
That is adaptation. That's what puts us at the top of the current food-chain.
Not being consistent all the time is actually a good thing if you look at it this way.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
MBTI is not based on evidence or reason and has an immoral provenance.

So it seems there are better things to do than introduce our children to MBTI.
 
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