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What exactly differentiates ESFP from ENFP?

Lady_X

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oh and you can see the difference in their eyes. Se types have sharper focus sometimes looking bit like some hawk looking at its pray. focus of Ne types on the other hand is wandering around more and pretty much only stops when they go inside their head using Fi or start using Te.

i've had people tell me that i scare them when i drive because i seem very far away...like i'm not paying attention at all and my bf says i'm that way even just walking around like ahh you're going to run into those people! or do you not see that? haha umm...it's sad...but true..i think it's obvious to others quite often that i'm not present...or very aware of my surroundings.
 

INTP

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i've had people tell me that i scare them when i drive because i seem very far away...like i'm not paying attention at all and my bf says i'm that way even just walking around like ahh you're going to run into those people! or do you not see that? haha umm...it's sad...but true..i think it's obvious to others quite often that i'm not present...or very aware of my surroundings.

nothing sad about that, its pretty charming :yes:
 

skylights

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for anyone using the word "random" - Ne is not random! lol. never is. you just can't see the patterns... :D

i have a good ESFP friend - our major differences that could be type-related are mostly about how we interact with time, i think. she is very spontaneous and in the moment... she hates making future plans because she likes following things as they come up. like we'll be shopping, and she'll get a text about a party, and from shopping she'll bounce to the party, from the party to someone's house, from the house to another house... and so on... she makes tons of friends this way and has some really crazy adventures. whereas i really like to have some kind of plan and premeditated endgoal (even if just "hang out with x") for my activities, instead of figuring it out as i go. she also really loves live local bands and goes to shows all the time, she enjoys the music, pretty much any kind, and likes hanging out with the crowd and getting to know people - me personally i like some select bands and/or going to see a show with a friend, but i can't imagine going about it how she does, it would make me feel very uncomfortable (that might also be an enneagram thing though, she's 7w6 to my 6w7). i've gotten frustrated at her for "ditching" me before and she's gotten frustrated at me for not being willing to just do what she does and follow the paths as they arise.

i think her Fi is also tinged a little differently because of Se. i'm all into psychology and morality and ethics and theory and study and whatnot, and certainly i am good with people, but i also feel a little removed from them. whereas she has the gift of being able to be dropped into essentially any situation and come out of it with 6 new friends, a free drink, and an invitation to a party, which constantly baffles me. i was hanging out with her tthe other day and she just went up to some guy and started talking to him, and he gave her a ride in his new convertible. on one hand, i don't really want to ride in a stranger's convertible. on the other - sort of amazing, how she did that. she connects with everyone, no pretention, no judgment, etc.

given, of course, i'm pretty sure she's Se to the extreme.

Tofu562 said:
Also she has dumped beer on a guy's head before. I couldn't see an ENFP doing this except under pretty extreme circumstances, lol.

:huh: odd point, but i'm very inclined to agree. i can totally see my ESFP friend doing this. and i'm pretty sure an ESTP friend of mine has done this. but i can totally not see me doing this.


Uh I think ENFPs being the most introverted is a fallacy, I say ENTJ! Te doesn't really see the need to socialize unless it fits the agenda, to which they use Se for that.

probably also depends on the enneatype of the ENFP and in question... ENTJ 8w7 is probably going to be more sociable than ENFP 4w5, but ENFP 7w8 more sociable than ENTJ 3w4.
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't know if this will help, but I used the response below in a thread in the SP forum for someone who wanted to know if their ESTP friend might be ENTP.

To elaborate a bit more....an important thing to remember is that BOTH Se & Ne types perceive possibilities, both have ideas, both make connections. That's all perceiving is - an awareness that "sees" possibilities, ideas & patterns. All the P functions do it, but of course Pe "looks outward".

Jung describes Se-doms as often being aesthetes, making an art of everyday living (ie. eating, dressing, etc; where the "artisan" association likely comes from). I think they will also note physical dynamics & what those imply realistically, such as body language between people & how two physical elements interact & what they can create. Obviously, they prefer to focus on the possibility of these literal aspects of life, and in the case of an ESFP, will often focus on how to make those ideal (Fi).

Ne-dom focus on intangible possibilities of the concepts of objects, such as imagining what a situation has in store for the future (in a universal & general way, not an immediate, literal way), seeing hidden potential or flaws in a scenario/object, the invisible dynamics between people, the underlying concept of something & how it relates to the concept of something else to highlight a more general idea, etc. From here they pull out new, "random" ideas, but their mind sees all the crosswires. Se-dom see the crosswires in their connections of physical/literal stuff, but they often seem less random because it's more visible to others & easier for them to follow.

Jung negatively describes Se-dom as hedonists, pursuing pleasure & new experience, & Ne-dom as fickle, flighty idea-pursuers. Of course, the experience Se-dom pursue is an idea also, but they often won't view it this way to themselves; to them, it's just the ultimate reality, and that trumps ideas. Just as the Ne-dom's pursuit of ideas can look like pursuit of sensation, but in their mind, it's the concept that is intriguing, which is why they move on so quickly to the next idea (the experience is secondary to the idea, & mainly experienced as inspiration for a new idea). It can definitely make them look alike to a casual observer. It's their attitude that will distinguish them more clearly.

The future vs present oriented difference is real also, but still can be confused, as Se-doms will see themselves as always thinking of the next experience, the next sensation to pursue, but it's an immediate, realistic future. The Ne-dom lives in a hypothetical future, and it's concepts of change that they pursue, which are usually not specific plans, but general ideas. The Ne-dom wants change (or realization of new ideas) for its own sake, and the Se-dom wants experience for its own sake. Fi comes into play by giving them a purpose.

Ne is not [simply] about random connections. Random connections can even be a sign of inferior N.

Se apprehends the literal object & its immediate, realistic possibilities. It also sees connections between these literal objects. These could be seemingly random. A blue car reminds them of the sky, which reminds them that they want to go skydiving. That is actually quite a Se line of thought.

Ne apprehends the concept behind the object and what that concept implies for future, hypothetical possibilities (they don't need to be realistic ideas; if it can be imagined, then it's a possibility). It sees connections between the underlying concepts of objects, not their literal attributes. This is why Ne types appear absent-minded, because they are not focusing their minds on what exists around them literally at the moment, but on what exists in concept in the world in general. The mindset is still focused on external things, but it's abstract, intangible stuff
 

Thalassa

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Also she has dumped beer on a guy's head before. I couldn't see an ENFP doing this except under pretty extreme circumstances, lol.

Interesting. When I was in high school I beat some preppy rich jock over the head with my French book for calling me a bitch in class one morning after he'd knocked my things off of my desk horseplaying with a friend of his. I also knocked a guy's glasses off because he was insulting me one day at lunch. Another day this ignorant redneck guy (seriously I think he was borderline retarded he was pretty bad) who kept picking on EVERYONE within a ten mile radius bugged me one day when I had my head down on my desk sleeping when I was sick, and I reached up and hit him.

I also kicked a couple of guys when I was a dancer, and beat another guy with my purse when he tried to snatch it.

I'm usually more verbal, like I have arguments with people or yell at people (though not as much as when I was very young, I've curbed the yelling TREMENDOUSLY as I've aged, like it only happens in very rare extreme cases now) but yeah I've hit a couple of guys for doing things to me.

I could see myself pouring a beer over a guy's head, yes, I could.

In every case, though, it was entirely provoked by some douchebag who thought he could bully me, overpower me, or sexually harrass me because of being a man. I really hate how certain men think they can pick on women just because they're women and oh they won't fight back they'll just cry. NOT.

Maybe I'm an ESFP. My mother says I don't take shit from anyone, which is entirely true. Could be an ESFP trait, I don't know.
 

Tofu562

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lol I think it might be. In my ESFP friend's case, it was repeated unwanted advances at a party. But then again she is able to stomach a lot of bullshit from her on-and-off-again boyfriend, so I dunno.
 

Thalassa

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lol I think it might be. In my ESFP friend's case, it was repeated unwanted advances at a party. But then again she is able to stomach a lot of bullshit from her on-and-off-again boyfriend, so I dunno.

That's pretty much how I am. Very interesting.

I think some people just need to be dealt with, because otherwise they'll just keep their shit up, and may even go hurt other people.

Sometimes assholes need a good shock, and some people just don't respond to "talking it out".

I typically see violence as a last resort, especially now that I'm an adult and no longer in my teens or very early twenties, but seriously it's sometimes the only way to get someone to back off.

I want to become trained in some martial art. I've always liked the idea of being able to fight back, because we live in a fucked up world.

It also may be the life I've lived. It's easy to say "no I'd never do that" if you've primarily been sheltered from the rednecks and rapists of the world.
 

Eric B

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Interesting. When I was in high school I beat some preppy rich jock over the head with my French book for calling me a bitch in class one morning after he'd knocked my things off of my desk horseplaying with a friend of his. I also knocked a guy's glasses off because he was insulting me one day at lunch. Another day this ignorant redneck guy (seriously I think he was borderline retarded he was pretty bad) who kept picking on EVERYONE within a ten mile radius bugged me one day when I had my head down on my desk sleeping when I was sick, and I reached up and hit him.

I also kicked a couple of guys when I was a dancer, and beat another guy with my purse when he tried to snatch it.

I'm usually more verbal, like I have arguments with people or yell at people (though not as much as when I was very young, I've curbed the yelling TREMENDOUSLY as I've aged, like it only happens in very rare extreme cases now) but yeah I've hit a couple of guys for doing things to me.

I could see myself pouring a beer over a guy's head, yes, I could.

In every case, though, it was entirely provoked by some douchebag who thought he could bully me, overpower me, or sexually harrass me because of being a man. I really hate how certain men think they can pick on women just because they're women and oh they won't fight back they'll just cry. NOT.

Maybe I'm an ESFP. My mother says I don't take shit from anyone, which is entirely true. Could be an ESFP trait, I don't know.

You're a Sanguine (ENP), like an ESFP (for whom it's ESF and SP), and Sanguines have hot tempers and quick, often rash/loud reactions. What distinguishes them from the Choleric who we usually associate those behaviors with is that they don't usually stay that way, and otherwise want to be more friendly.

So that behavior you describe will be similar in both types. The difference, again, will be in cooperative/pragmatic behavior. I could use some examples of pragmatism for the SP; but to suffice for now, the ESFP will be quicker to act in certain [other] ways that the NF will be slower. The first place we can start is with physical types of activity, given the Se/Ne difference.
 

Thalassa

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I think it would be cool if you gave some examples of pragmatism/cooperative.
 

Eric B

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Yeah; I have to find some, in this context (particularly between SP and NF). I'll check Keirsey's and Berens' books, but they might not specifically compare the temperaments like that.

Again, it will involve the SP being quicker to take action, and the NF being a bit slower. Right now, from Berens' book on the temperaments, "affiliative" behavior includes "seeking agreement" and "checking in with norms and values", while pragmatic is "seeking outcomes", and "choosing actions to meet goals". Comfort zone for the Affiliative is having defined roles, while for pragmatic, it is "being free to engage in expedient actions regardless of roles"
 

Thalassa

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Yeah; I have to find some, in this context (particularly between SP and NF). I'll check Keirsey's and Berens' books, but they might not specifically compare the temperaments like that.

Again, it will involve the SP being quicker to take action, and the NF being a bit slower. Right now, from Berens' book on the temperaments, "affiliative" behavior includes "seeking agreement" and "checking in with norms and values", while pragmatic is "seeking outcomes", and "choosing actions to meet goals". Comfort zone for the Affiliative is having defined roles, while for pragmatic, it is "being free to engage in expedient actions regardless of roles"

I wanted specific examples maybe from IRL because I actually own Keirsey's book, and I found to my suprise that related almost equally to NF and SP. When I took the four dichotomy test my result was ENFP, but when I took the "temperament screening" test in the back of the book I only had a one point difference between NF and SP, while SJ and NT were way on down, like half of those two.

In short, I'm either an extremely verbal SP, or a very pragmatic NF.
 

Eric B

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I don't have any IRL examples, because I don't know enough of either SP or NF (almost everyone around me is SJ, with a handful of NT's. There are two ESFP Sanguine/Sanguine teenage girls, but I'm not really around them enough. Always was curious about what exactly Sanguine in Control was like).

I recall that you identified with this http://www.pastoral-counseling-cent...ea-of-Control/phlegmatic-sanguine-control.htm, and that would explain why you would seem between NF and SP. That temperament has moderate "expressed Control", which in the correlation would place it between pragmatic and cooperative. It's slightly on the Sanguine (expressive, pragmatic) side, but still close to Supine (more reserved).
 

Thalassa

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I don't have any IRL examples, because I don't know enough of either SP or NF

So you go by pure theory? I'm sorry but I don't really trust that.

(almost everyone around me is SJ, with a handful of NT's. There are two ESFP Sanguine/Sanguine teenage girls, but I'm not really around them enough. Always was curious about what exactly Sanguine in Control was like).

I recall that you identified with this http://www.pastoral-counseling-cent...ea-of-Control/phlegmatic-sanguine-control.htm, and that would explain why you would seem between NF and SP. That temperament has moderate "expressed Control", which in the correlation would place it between pragmatic and cooperative. It's slightly on the Sanguine (expressive, pragmatic) side, but still close to Supine (more reserved).

Actually I'm more between the Phlegmatic Sanguine and Sanguine, because I'm not quite that low energy always. I'm much more driven and fiercely independent sometimes than that. I think I was going through a period of burn-out from school/depression when I picked that, though I can see sides of myself in both.

Like depression and mania. :wacko:
 

Thalassa

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I am a bit more reserved though, so Phleg-Sang probably is right.

I just have gone through these intense phases of NO, NO... ME? I CAN DO IT ALL THANK YOU. At one point in school I was make straight As, working part-time, and also going to various extracurricular events related to school related to my classes, helping out with various things here and there.

I've just had quite about enough of that shit, I basically philosophically rejected that way of life.

So I guess Phleg-Sang. I'm just thinking though of these phases of my life where I was much more pushy, involved, "NO I DON'T NEED ANY HELP," and that kind of thing...mainly when I was younger, though.

I've done various things REPEATEDLY to prove my strength and independence to myself though. Even after being burn-out from school, my first impulse was to fly across the country with very little money (again), live in youth hostels, and start my life over again. I also took up jogging in the months following.

Now I feel like I've been on a "down swing" again, of being more like the Phleg-Sang of just doing what I have to do to get through the day and saying "fuck it."

I wouldn't say that's been the tone of my life overall, though. Quite the contrary.
 

InvisibleJim

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Have you considered if the juice is worth the squeeze to sufficiently specify the level of accuracy you require wrt. the S/N divide?

Are you perhaps trying to account for such a range of possibilities that when considered against the system which you are considering it just creates fuzziness due to the nature of the system?
 

Thalassa

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You're right. I need to take a week or so away from the forum.

BRB.
 

InvisibleJim

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You're right. I need to take a week or so away from the forum.

BRB.

ENFP then I guess

m009.gif
 

InvisibleJim

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ENFP then I guess

m009.gif

Let me explain: It is the nature of the Ne dominant to first seek out all potential avenues of idea that are 'practical' before they can be content with their chosen sensatory outlets (Si). It is in the nature of Se dominant to first seek out and experience all potential avenues of sensation to be content before falling back on a collusive idea (Ni) when stressed or excited.

If one side of the coin is indiscernible check the other face and therefore you will work out what it is by the process of elimination.
 

InvisibleJim

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As the above post has been proving eerily popular: The above recommendation is about as far as is 'practical' for a certain level of 'safety' to that certain value of practical and safetiness with no additional practical or safetiness implied.

I highly recommend the use of socionics to split apart these two types.

Three things to bear in mind regarding socionics
  1. Ignore Alexei, Socionics functions are Jungian Archetypes; there is no real difference between 'information metabolism' and 'cognitive processing' aka. thinking through information (ding)
  2. Have a detailed look at the wikisocion descriptions for IEE (ENFP) and SEE (ESFP)
  3. Review the quadrants
  4. Review the type interrelations chart
  5. Consider that Socionics may offer such a sufficiently detailed appraisal of the behavioural consequences of cognition that there may be little point being worried about behaviour=/=cognition esque rebukes.
  6. Decide if IEE or SEE is a best fit for you; then reconsider the implications on your Jung/MBTI type
 

King sns

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So you go by pure theory? I'm sorry but I don't really trust that.



Actually I'm more between the Phlegmatic Sanguine and Sanguine, because I'm not quite that low energy always. I'm much more driven and fiercely independent sometimes than that. I think I was going through a period of burn-out from school/depression when I picked that, though I can see sides of myself in both.

Like depression and mania. :wacko:

Over time talking to you, I would think of you as sanguine first.
 
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