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  1. #11
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Are you good at sales?

    Keirsey talks about that, too. About SPs, especially ESTPs, being good at sales or business. Tactics. Politics. Maneuvering.

    And ESFPs being entertainers, knowing how to provoke other people's emotions and/or how to work a room. Keirsey talks about how SPs are just as interested in people's motives as NFs, but that SPs do it in order to gain something, and are more cynical about it.

    Not that I'm a fan of Keirsey, cuz I'm not. I'm just explaining more because I read his book and it does go into more detail than the crappy short descriptions on the Interwebz.

    I think someone knowledgable just needs to clarify Se as a function, that would be swell.
    Keirsey's multiple intelligences and how they correspond with temperaments is possibly his most useful contribution. Still, admittedly, he starts off by assuming cognitive preferences equate to intellectual ability. The theory of intelligence would be exigent in typology because it's concerned with cognition, but his models for intelligence are a bit hard to access. He basically comes off as saying when those who prefer Se enter the scene, shit "starts to happen". Is it really that simple? Why are SPs an exception? Doesn't everyone do shit? Is analyzing this in depth unwise?

    I'm tempted to write up Jung's Se but his theories suffer from even more problems in accessibility because you must know his terms. Reading Psych Types Ch. 10, which is the chapter most of us are concerned with, will only lead you further into the dark unless you hammer some nails in other areas of his theories.

  2. #12
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    @ Whatever: Interesting. I relate to the constant question asking of Ne, and also to sometimes missing things.

    But I am not as oblivious as some Ns claim to be. I hear, see, feel, smell, and taste things, and it affects me. I do not want to sit in a room with a bad smell, and I do not want to drink coffee that is too hot.

    I also seem to need to collect externals in order to create, but people say Ne does that too. So Ne and Se are both collecting externals to create, and they both want experience, and that's how they can get confused.

    I also want examples A LOT. Like, okay, give me a good example or metaphor of how that concepts works, and you attribute this to Se.

    On the other hand, I'm actually pretty good at coming up with comparitive ways of explaining concepts myself. Like I see how the broad concept applies to two seemingly disconnected things, so I can give a different example for comparison to illustrate the concept.

    But I also often want people to do that for me, too. To give me examples.

  3. #13
    Ginkgo
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    Se - being aware of what is. Most "objective" function. Doesn't interpret personal significance in perceptions, but simply acknowledges the immediate field of sensory information. It's so simple to me that I want to strangle this function.

  4. #14
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @ Whatever: Interesting. I relate to the constant question asking of Ne, and also to sometimes missing things.

    But I am not as oblivious as some Ns claim to be. I hear, see, feel, smell, and taste things, and it affects me. I do not want to sit in a room with a bad smell, and I do not want to drink coffee that is too hot.

    I also seem to need to collect externals in order to create, but people say Ne does that too. So Ne and Se are both collecting externals to create, and they both want experience, and that's how they can get confused.

    I also want examples A LOT. Like, okay, give me a good example or metaphor of how that concepts works, and you attribute this to Se.

    On the other hand, I'm actually pretty good at coming up with comparitive ways of explaining concepts myself. Like I see how the broad concept applies to two seemingly disconnected things, so I can give a different example for comparison to illustrate the concept.

    But I also often want people to do that for me, too. To give me examples.
    Everybody uses Se, regardless of whether they prefer it or not. Also, all intuitive perceptions happen by some sensory information, especially in the case of Ne. Ne simply lets us have a hunch as to how that information applies to a broader, more global, and abstract context. Se, however, wouldn't lead us to make hunches, but we would instead gather as much detailed information until we are finally satiated by a refined global picture. The difference is in how the information is interpreted and processed.

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Functions aren't skill sets, but skills become associated with them due to people's tendency to be drawn to what allows them to use their preferred processes, and of course, the more you do something, the better you tend to get at it.

    Se is associated with skills which involve a manipulation of tangible reality, concrete materials, &/or realistic, immediate opportunity because the Se mindset focuses on what is real & immediately apparent in a concrete, factual way. Everything is what it is, and to read into it seems silly, pretentious, and out of touch with reality. So Se types note possibilities & have ideas, but these are more literal, realistic, inspired by a pursuit of sensory experience than what Ne types perceive.

    I think these excerpts highlight some good points about SPs (while keeping mind they use Ji also):

    Quote Originally Posted by van der hoop on Se-doms
    ...facts perceived through the senses remain for people of this type the only reality. They never linger over reflections and principles; they are, to an extreme degree, realists. Nor do they feel any need to evaluate their experiences in any systematic way, but their reactions drive them from one sensation to the next.

    ... If they [create an impression] it is more owing to their success in making an art out of life than to any special qualities. They feel at home in the world, accept things as they are, and know how to adjust themselves to circumstances. Since their acceptance of things as they are extends to themselves, they are occasionally a little too easy-going towards their own faults; but, on the other hand, they do not readily overvalue themselves

    They are most impressed by facts, and their originality finds expression in a truer and less prejudiced view of these than others take, with the result that they may also discover fresh facts. The phrase “matter-of fact” describes this attitude very clearly.

    They stick to experience, are empiricists par excellence
    .....

    They often make good observers, and they make good practical use of their observations. They are frequently good story-tellers. They are most suited to practical callings, such as those of doctor or engineer. Their fondness for knowing a multitude of facts is related to a preference which they occasionally show for collecting objects of scientific or aesthetic interest. One may also include in this type many people of good taste, who have developed appreciation of the subtler pleasures of life into a fine art. Such people are often well able to discuss problems and theories of life, but in this case it is more for the pleasure of the discussion than out of interest in the actual problems. For the sake of some special sensation, they will take up all kinds of things which otherwise would not interest them. For people of this type are not satisfied with a simple pursuit of instinctual gratification. They seek intense and unusual sensations, and by no means only those which are pleasant and easily attained.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #16
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @ Whatever: Interesting. I relate to the constant question asking of Ne, and also to sometimes missing things.

    But I am not as oblivious as some Ns claim to be. I hear, see, feel, smell, and taste things, and it affects me. I do not want to sit in a room with a bad smell, and I do not want to drink coffee that is too hot.

    I also seem to need to collect externals in order to create, but people say Ne does that too. So Ne and Se are both collecting externals to create, and they both want experience, and that's how they can get confused.

    I also want examples A LOT. Like, okay, give me a good example or metaphor of how that concepts works, and you attribute this to Se.

    On the other hand, I'm actually pretty good at coming up with comparitive ways of explaining concepts myself. Like I see how the broad concept applies to two seemingly disconnected things, so I can give a different example for comparison to illustrate the concept.

    But I also often want people to do that for me, too. To give me examples.
    and Se asks a ton of questions as well

    the biggest difference, I guess, is the ability to see what is actually there in a way... it's hard to express because the words don't really cover how much of "to see what is actually there" that it feels like in a way compared to the descriptions of existance by others. In a way the pure thrill of a moment- the moment where you close a difficult sale, the moment when you break off from the pack while running and really hit your stride, the moment you realize that the pizza you baked is absolutley, stunningly perfect and delicious and that relaxed perfect moment when you finished cleaning the house and go out to the back yard and lay on the grass and just listen to the birds singing and feel yourself sinking into the ground almost just out of pure relaxation... it's hard to describe

    My best example of its use is sizing someone up when communicating with them... watching every small movement and facial expression, listening to every change in tone of voice and being able to synthesize exactly what that means and reacting to it without a second passing
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and Se asks a ton of questions as well

    the biggest difference, I guess, is the ability to see what is actually there in a way... it's hard to express because the words don't really cover how much of "to see what is actually there" that it feels like in a way compared to the descriptions of existance by others. In a way the pure thrill of a moment- the moment where you close a difficult sale, the moment when you break off from the pack while running and really hit your stride, the moment you realize that the pizza you baked is absolutley, stunningly perfect and delicious and that relaxed perfect moment when you finished cleaning the house and go out to the back yard and lay on the grass and just listen to the birds singing and feel yourself sinking into the ground almost just out of pure relaxation... it's hard to describe

    My best example of its use is sizing someone up when communicating with them... watching every small movement and facial expression, listening to every change in tone of voice and being able to synthesize exactly what that means and reacting to it without a second passing
    Okay...I totally relate to the first part. Just being in the moment. Part of what I wanted to learn how to do with writing was to convey those intense moments (good, bad, whatever ) to other people. Capturing place, time, sensation of "being there." However, I've been told Si can also do this from sensory memory, and put our own subjective spin on it.

    The second part, not as much. Reminds me of my ESFJ ex. Noticed everything about people and sized them up, could physically see what they were up to. He was so good with subtle change in facial expression. Also noticed details I missed, like people's license plate numbers, that sort of thing. I honestly thought he was ESFP at first, but Fe/Si seems to fit his entire personality so much better, and he got ESFJ when he tested.

  8. #18
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I would be crap as a salesman, the ISFP stereotype fits me in that I don't like to influence people, I want people to do what seems right to them, I would feel bad trying to sell a product I know is inferior.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

    Quinlan's Creations

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Se - being aware of what is. Most "objective" function. Doesn't interpret personal significance in perceptions, but simply acknowledges the immediate field of sensory information. It's so simple to me that I want to strangle this function.
    Let's think about it this way. A lot of art professors love to tell me to
    1: Stop thinking (I am at my best when I am not thinking about anything in particular)
    2: Stop worrying (I am at my best when I am not worrying about my own drawings)
    3: Just draw (I am at my best when I just draw.... which ties in with 1 and 2)
    4: When you notice a mistake, fix it and move on. (When I step back, and I see a mistake, I fix it.)

    How does it come along the lines of Se? My professors basically are telling me to draw what I see, not what I think I see. If a mistake was made, I should go back and fix it, but don't overly think about the mistake. As I get better, instead of spending one long hour to draw something, it is possible to draw in less than that because my eyes are being trained. Mistakes are made a lot less the more I draw and the more I see (rather than what I think I see.) Instead of "This part of the image should be.... about this size in proportion to this part of the image"..... just draw.

    But this is coming from a guy with Ji.

  10. #20
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    That's why I love cooking, it's soothing. No thinking, no worrying, just be and create.

    Except if you have to cook in a high volume restaurant, then that's not soothing, I have no illusions about that.

    It's one of the reasons why I'd rather be a pastry chef.

    It's also why I used to love dancing so much, just be in the music, it was like projecting myself out to others on the audience. It was more being and feeling than thinking.

    Hmmm...it's why singing is nice too.

    I think, like Gingko said, everybody has Se. But people who prefer it use it constantly to perfect related talents, like OrangeAppled said.

    Burning Rave are you an SP, or is that how you shift into Se while you're making visual art?

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