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  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if the concept of mono and poly-systems could plausibly map to Sensing. What I am attempting to generate here is a discussion that takes into account some of the most significant differences that can occur within a function to help explain the great diversity within each. This is all just hypothesis, and so discussion is welcome to further explore what is presented here or to propose a different way of breaking down a function. While this is based on MBTI, I'm not approaching the system as the end-all, and so new ideas are welcome to be brought into it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #12
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    I like the concept. How fundamental to the mono/poly dichotomy is the assumption of certainty or lack there of? I identify more with the mono-system description but I have an underlying assumption of uncertainty.
    I have a vague idea in my head about dividing sensing (or at least Se) along the inter/intra axis, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good description. The basic observation being that some Se users seem to use the function more in a social context, while some focus it more on individual action. Not sure if it could apply to Si or not.
    Also do you see any reason why opposite functions would be more prone take opposite or similar stances? I identify more with both Introverted Inter-thought and Extroverted Interpersonal.

  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Sensing

    Definitions

    Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

    Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

    Internal-Systems = Sensing preferences are derived internally. This could compare to the Intuitive concept of a single or Mono-System.

    External-Systems = Sensing preferences are derived externally. This could compare with the Intuitive concept of multiple, or Poly-Systems.
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    Introverted Internal-System

    An internal point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on internally created preferences. A possible more extreme example is an individual like Larry from "Num3ers" who eats only white food. It would be someone who creates their own sensory preferences based on internal ideas about these and having little or no influence from external systems like what you are "supposed" to eat for Thanksgiving. This person may be seen as eccentric because they have an extremely personal way of creating preferences that is not based on any tradition or system.

    Introverted External-Systems

    An internal point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on externally created preferences. A possible example would be someone who always eats strawberry pancakes on Sunday morning because they grew up with this experience. Or perhaps someone who spends a year in Thailand, but still needs to have a Thanksgiving dinner with a turkey and all the trimmings just they are supposed to be. This person has personalized an external concept of how a sensory experience is experienced. This is one type of strong traditionalist, but someone who bases their concept of tradition on individual experience.

    Extroverted Internal-System
    An external point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on internally created preferences. This would be someone who makes sensory choices based on what is happening or available externally done in harmony with internal preferences. This person is not concerned with external systems of sensory experience like what is a proper Thanksgiving, but they don't have preconceived notions about sensory experience, but go with whatever flow is available that they personally prefer. This is seen as the free-spirit for sensory experience.

    Extroverted External-Systems

    An external point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on externally created preferences. This would be someone who makes sensory choices based on what is happening or available externally done in harmony with whatever external systems are in place. When this person has Thanksgiving dinner in Kansas, it has all the correct trimmings with Turkey, but when they live in Korea for a year, they will have Kimchee served authentically. This person is also a kind of traditionalist, but one who is aware of whatever traditions they encounter externally. They think in terms of established systems, but interact with as many as they encounter.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    I like the concept. How fundamental to the mono/poly dichotomy is the assumption of certainty or lack there of? I identify more with the mono-system description but I have an underlying assumption of uncertainty.
    I have a vague idea in my head about dividing sensing (or at least Se) along the inter/intra axis, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good description. The basic observation being that some Se users seem to use the function more in a social context, while some focus it more on individual action. Not sure if it could apply to Si or not.
    Also do you see any reason why opposite functions would be more prone take opposite or similar stances? I identify more with both Introverted Inter-thought and Extroverted Interpersonal.
    I think you are right about the certainty issue. Let me go back and edit that out. Thanks for pointing that out.

    I made an attempt at the Sensing axis, but it probably needs some revision. The Sensing and Intuitive should have two similar axis, so I'm not sure if the single and multiple system approach is the right one for Intuition.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #15
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Introverted Mono-System
    An internal point of reference concerned with organizing internalized concepts into a single system that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of a singular point of reference.
    This sounds like Ti to me.
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  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    This sounds like Ti to me.
    I think Ti and Ni are similar, but they are systems organized differently. One is based more on logic and tends to have mastery over the system so that it is all comprehended. Ni is like viewing something so large it cannot be consciously comprehended and so it is funneled down to core concepts from which the whole can be extrapolated. It is possible that I can confuse the two because I am lost in a Ni-Ti Tert-loop.

    This is what I have for Ti. It sound almost the same, and the new axis distinguishes between the Ti that is primarily internal and unique, and the Ti that combines that internalized thinking moreso with external knowledge, but in both cases the point of reference is internal. There are Ti's who read constantly and absorb much from the outside world, but still integrate it internally rather than like Te would. There are also Ti's who are more purely internally focused. Let me know what you think of the distinction between the two and if there is a way to further clarify - also if there is a better way to distinguish between Ti and Ni.

    Introverted Intra-thought
    An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought.

    Introverted Inter-thought
    An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #17
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    This is actually interesting. You could define it in terms of neurological firing patterns and what they're being stimulated by (repeating firing as is often seen in those with high d1 levels could be intuition?) and whether those patterns impact the larger totality of organism and the selves outside of itself. However, I would still like for their to be gradient in terms of "levels" of the various functions because it probably varies with synaptic density. I believe J types tend to have higher executive function generally for example. Also, this does not explain states which transcend the individual ones where one is simultaneously inter/intra connected and when one views oneself as and others as both subjects and objects. I think feelings would be more closely related in some ways at least to similarities of sensory data to that previously mapped with positive affect (not lighting up of amygdala/negative hippocampus experience/cortisol release) with some similarities for intuition (dopamine channels) and extraversion and perception thus the enfp-istj polarization that is so common to see in most (the opposing states to those mentioned previously would correlate with dissimilarity of experience).

    /random thoughts
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #18
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think Ti and Ni are similar, but they are systems organized differently. One is based more on logic and tends to have mastery over the system so that it is all comprehended. Ni is like viewing something so large it cannot be consciously comprehended and so it is funneled down to core concepts from which the whole can be extrapolated. It is possible that I can confuse the two because I am lost in a Ni-Ti Tert-loop.

    This is what I have for Ti. It sound almost the same, and the new axis distinguishes between the Ti that is primarily internal and unique, and the Ti that combines that internalized thinking moreso with external knowledge, but in both cases the point of reference is internal. There are Ti's who read constantly and absorb much from the outside world, but still integrate it internally rather than like Te would. There are also Ti's who are more purely internally focused. Let me know what you think of the distinction between the two and if there is a way to further clarify - also if there is a better way to distinguish between Ti and Ni.

    Introverted Intra-thought
    An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought.

    Introverted Inter-thought
    An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts.
    Interesting. I identify mostly with the latter description.
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  9. #19
    Member RoadPaveMent's Avatar
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    I am 100% extroverted intrapersonal. My whole life is spent being upset for others.
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  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Interesting idea.
    Though I don't think each function attitude would really need to be divided like that, at least not as far as some sort of preference. I'll have to digest these more, but the first thing that comes to mind (and which no one here was really saying back when this thread started, but has been pointed out more recently, particularly in discussions with @INTP /Naama), is that according to Jung, each function attitude is like a loop (my term), starting at its preferred i/e orientation, then traveling to the opposite orientation, and yet coming back and finishing at its starting point. You often hear i/e described as "energy flowing toward" the subject/object, or one being "energized by" the internal or external world. So energy moves in both directions, and both realms (orientations) are accessed by the function. The attitude is determined by the starting/ending point.

    So what you're describing might simply be those two different aspects of the function-attitude.
    It also might be the other function being used in tandem. Like Introverted Internal Systems where the person has their own peculiar tradition might be Si with Ti or Fi, and Introverted External Systems might be Si with Te or Fe, or even Ne. Like I can identify with both modes, and when in the first mode; it's likely from Ti, and in the other mode, from Fe.
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