INTP
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i posted this on perc while typoc was down, so ill post it here also, now that this place is up again
i had this idea for how the function order list should be put out.
first of all i dont believe in that 8 function setup, it simply doesent make any sense after studying jungs work. imo what they call shadow function function in MBTI is actually your main functions working together. for ITP this "shadow Te" would actually be Ti and Fe used together, and because Ti tries to accommodate itself to external world through Fe, it creates this crippled way of thinking because Ti and Fe will kind of clash together.
Ti being the first function that defines ego for ITP is hard to let go to make room for Fe(jung has written quite alot about this, jung calls Fe the shadow function for Ti dom), so in order to use your shadow(Fe) in healthy way, it needs to make room for Ti ego or what comes out will be unhealthy thinking(jung talked about this also).
now then there is this factor on MBTI shadow functions, that when you are depressed or something, you start to use your (MBTI)shadow functions, for ITP it would start with Te, then go deeper into your shadow -> Ni(what i would hypothesize being Ne dominating in field of Si) -> Se(imo Si dominating, in field of Ne) -> Fi(Fe dominating in field of Ti). all of these steps in your (MBTI)shadow are basically steps into your Fe(jung shadow) and your shadow will work in unhealthy ways until you surrender part of your ego to pure Fe and stop trying to Ti what comes out of it.
jung only used 3 function set for types, dom, aux and inferior, but he talked about transcendent function. transcendent function basically the third function in MBTI function order and jung described it as having an a transformative quality to it(but the transcendent function is not all there is to third function, its more like just one function of the third function) that can lead you in your shadow(inferior function) in healthy way. but then there being shadow that must be handled properly(give room for it for your ego -> making room from your dom function as it clashes with it) in order to gain control over it and use it in healthy way.
there was an interesting article on the journal of analytical psychology(jungian psychology), called 'the third in the shadow of the fourth' ( http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=joap.052.0585a ) where Ann Belford Ulanov (jungian analyst) hypothesized that the third(transcendent/third function) is in the shadow of the fourth(shadow/inferior). after reading this and thinking how the dominant function might be hard to see, since its so much yourself, that its hard to see it apart of yourself(other functions) to notice how it works, because you have been using it all your life much and use it pretty much automatically. i have noticed that Si has same sort of effect on me, but its not because i use it automatically but consciously like Ti, but i use it automatically, but unconsciously.
now there is this factor of lower functions being more unconscious. dom function being most conscious. aux less conscious(more like subconscious(as in freudian subconscious(unconscious, but can be taken into conscious)), but coming more conscious as its developed). tert even more unconscious(imo something like formed unconsciously, but once the perceotion/judgment is formed, the formed stuff is subconscious). and inferior being the most unconscious, but once developed it starts to work more like tert function, but will fight the dom function as T and F will clash(ITP example), so what comes out of it, cannot be taken as facts, like stuff from other functions. that is unless you have had grip on your shadow(making room on ego for the inferior and inferior used as its pure form). tert wont clash with the aux function, simply because aux has to be confirmed by the dom function to be taken seriously -> there is more "room" in your "self" for your tert than for your inferior.
i suggest separating the unconscious self from the conscious self.
if we would arrange the INTP functions like this:
conscious -> Ti, Ne, Si, Fe <- unconscious
we would see Si being behind Fe, if you look at this from the point of view of the unconscious. for the unconscious self(functions backwards) Fe would be the strongest function, kinda like dom shadow function, Si being the aux shadow function.
-> the third being in the shadow of the fourth
but because these lower function(Si and Fe for INTP) can be taken into the conscious, i suggest calling them shadow functions. even tho third isnt your shadow according to jung, but its a way to your shadow(inferior), it has same type of negative qualities than inferior if its not developed/handled well and because it is in the shadow of the fourth from your unconscious point of view, i think it would be fair to call it your dominant shadow function.
in conclusion i think it would give more understanding about jungian typology if the dom and aux functions should be called Ego functions and Tert and inferior as Shadow functions. and this would guide new people for understanding some of the fundamentals of jungian typology and not leave important stuff out like MBTI does. this way newbie trying to understand what this function order is about, he could just ask what are these ego and shadow functions and it could be easily explained to him -> he would get far more understanding of this whole system than just seeing first, second, third and fourth function.
so INTP would be
Ego functions:
Ti
Ne
Shadow functions:
Si
Fe
what do you guys think about this?
i had this idea for how the function order list should be put out.
first of all i dont believe in that 8 function setup, it simply doesent make any sense after studying jungs work. imo what they call shadow function function in MBTI is actually your main functions working together. for ITP this "shadow Te" would actually be Ti and Fe used together, and because Ti tries to accommodate itself to external world through Fe, it creates this crippled way of thinking because Ti and Fe will kind of clash together.
Ti being the first function that defines ego for ITP is hard to let go to make room for Fe(jung has written quite alot about this, jung calls Fe the shadow function for Ti dom), so in order to use your shadow(Fe) in healthy way, it needs to make room for Ti ego or what comes out will be unhealthy thinking(jung talked about this also).
now then there is this factor on MBTI shadow functions, that when you are depressed or something, you start to use your (MBTI)shadow functions, for ITP it would start with Te, then go deeper into your shadow -> Ni(what i would hypothesize being Ne dominating in field of Si) -> Se(imo Si dominating, in field of Ne) -> Fi(Fe dominating in field of Ti). all of these steps in your (MBTI)shadow are basically steps into your Fe(jung shadow) and your shadow will work in unhealthy ways until you surrender part of your ego to pure Fe and stop trying to Ti what comes out of it.
jung only used 3 function set for types, dom, aux and inferior, but he talked about transcendent function. transcendent function basically the third function in MBTI function order and jung described it as having an a transformative quality to it(but the transcendent function is not all there is to third function, its more like just one function of the third function) that can lead you in your shadow(inferior function) in healthy way. but then there being shadow that must be handled properly(give room for it for your ego -> making room from your dom function as it clashes with it) in order to gain control over it and use it in healthy way.
there was an interesting article on the journal of analytical psychology(jungian psychology), called 'the third in the shadow of the fourth' ( http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=joap.052.0585a ) where Ann Belford Ulanov (jungian analyst) hypothesized that the third(transcendent/third function) is in the shadow of the fourth(shadow/inferior). after reading this and thinking how the dominant function might be hard to see, since its so much yourself, that its hard to see it apart of yourself(other functions) to notice how it works, because you have been using it all your life much and use it pretty much automatically. i have noticed that Si has same sort of effect on me, but its not because i use it automatically but consciously like Ti, but i use it automatically, but unconsciously.
now there is this factor of lower functions being more unconscious. dom function being most conscious. aux less conscious(more like subconscious(as in freudian subconscious(unconscious, but can be taken into conscious)), but coming more conscious as its developed). tert even more unconscious(imo something like formed unconsciously, but once the perceotion/judgment is formed, the formed stuff is subconscious). and inferior being the most unconscious, but once developed it starts to work more like tert function, but will fight the dom function as T and F will clash(ITP example), so what comes out of it, cannot be taken as facts, like stuff from other functions. that is unless you have had grip on your shadow(making room on ego for the inferior and inferior used as its pure form). tert wont clash with the aux function, simply because aux has to be confirmed by the dom function to be taken seriously -> there is more "room" in your "self" for your tert than for your inferior.
i suggest separating the unconscious self from the conscious self.
if we would arrange the INTP functions like this:
conscious -> Ti, Ne, Si, Fe <- unconscious
we would see Si being behind Fe, if you look at this from the point of view of the unconscious. for the unconscious self(functions backwards) Fe would be the strongest function, kinda like dom shadow function, Si being the aux shadow function.
-> the third being in the shadow of the fourth
but because these lower function(Si and Fe for INTP) can be taken into the conscious, i suggest calling them shadow functions. even tho third isnt your shadow according to jung, but its a way to your shadow(inferior), it has same type of negative qualities than inferior if its not developed/handled well and because it is in the shadow of the fourth from your unconscious point of view, i think it would be fair to call it your dominant shadow function.
in conclusion i think it would give more understanding about jungian typology if the dom and aux functions should be called Ego functions and Tert and inferior as Shadow functions. and this would guide new people for understanding some of the fundamentals of jungian typology and not leave important stuff out like MBTI does. this way newbie trying to understand what this function order is about, he could just ask what are these ego and shadow functions and it could be easily explained to him -> he would get far more understanding of this whole system than just seeing first, second, third and fourth function.
so INTP would be
Ego functions:
Ti
Ne
Shadow functions:
Si
Fe
what do you guys think about this?
