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  1. #71
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I’m posting my response to Orangey before catching up with the rest of the thread, so usual apologies for anything that’s already been said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    As for Southern Cross's "point" about my comment being ironic, I thought that the irony she was pointing out came from the fact that I, an S, was criticizing EW, an N, for extrapolating meaning beyond the details of the text while at the same time protesting the stated differences between N and S (which I wasn't. I was protesting something much more specific. But I could see how one might not think to hard about it if they just wanted an opportunity to be pithy. Or at least attempt to be pithy, as the case may be.) I'm not seeing the irony in the sentence that you bolded, though.
    The part of your paragraph that seems contradictory (I really don’t know if this is what Southern Cross was also referring to or not) is that you’re trying to nullify the proposition that Ns and Ss speak a different language while also pointing out how the language is different (the part I bolded). I mean, I get that you were focusing on esoteric wench’s specific claim (impressions, patterns, meaning)- but in pointing out how those impressions/patterns/meanings would be different, you did point out how the language is different.

    It’s just that it really does make a difference, to talk to someone with the same starting point. I relate strongly to the first post Jennifer left- a lot of times point A for me isn’t close enough to point B (where its practical value is apparent) in what I’m saying for its value to be easily digestible. It helps to talk to people who can help me iron it out- others who make the same leaps of thought, so they can either show me where I’ve gone wrong or show me where I need to present the connections in a more linear way. I suppose I would call this a “secret language”, it does help me make it more readily digestible if I’ve got someone to iron it out with. If I can’t make it more digestible, it gets dismissed as imagination or just making things more complicated then they need to be- because the meaning isn’t based on what “REAL meaning” is to the other person. This is frustrating when I’m pretty sure I’ve got a valid point (with practical value, however many stages removed from “REAL” as it may seem). And the more someone can understand the leaps in thought I tend to make, the less they are likely to dismiss what I’m saying as crazy talk.

    I thought this was a good point:

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    I don't notice much of a communication barrier between myself and N's in my life. To me it just looks like they are thinking backwards. It's like, they start with the theory and the big picture and then move backwards to fill it in with the details. Underdeveloped people won't move past their original thought process. So, an underdeveloped S may have trouble communicating with an underdeveloped N, because they aren't meeting anywhere in between. Most well rounded adults end up appearing to speak both S and N languages, their processes moving in different directions. (Sorry if this came out awkward.)
    I agree that Ss who are willing to move past their own thought process are no more or less accommodating than Ns who are willing to move past their initial thought process- and that both Ss and Ns can be equally unwilling to do so. [edit:] There’s a quote I love by R.D. Laing: “The way we construe a difference may serve to narrow or widen it. Both what you say and how I listen contribute to how close or far apart we are.” I’ll wholly concede there are intuitives who (consciously or not) widen the difference because of special snowflake syndrome, and who seem to believe they are accomplishing something sensational by simply being intuitive. As annoying as that is, arguing that a difference doesn’t exist isn’t the same as arguing that people aren’t accomplishing something magical and profound by being intuitive (as opposed to accomplishing something magical and profound by actually accomplishing something magical and profound)- and not recognizing the real differences (and the difficulties Ns claim to experience in feeling understood by others) is actually also widening the gap because there are real differences. It’s a mistake I see happening in these S/N threads, as a knee-jerk reaction to this other special snowflake syndrome-induced ‘imagined’ differences issue going on. It’s like it all gets dismissed as being caused by special snowflake syndrome.

    To the op, I think there is a point by virtue of N being a minority. A minority in any group will always have to be somewhat more accommodating than the majority, because that’s just how things work. This, and there was a point in how Ns have to develop S in order to function in the world and communicate with others (to both Ss and other Ns alike)- whereas Ss don’t really need to develop N simply to be functional.

    I’m not sure I agree that sensing much of communication barrier at all means a person is underdeveloped, but I guess that depends on how we’re qualifying a communication barrier. As I said above, I do perceive something like bumps in the road- but someone has to be a really unwilling, super-underdeveloped S for me to think it isn't worth the effort of trying to communicate with them.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #72
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I see that this line of thinking is one which is too far ingrained in the thinking of this community as a whole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.
    Yeah right, like I'm going to believe that the majority of university professors and lawyers are N (especially lawyers, good God! Talk about an SJ bastion.) This statement alone leads me to think that you're simply typing people as N IRL if they are smart or open-minded. Just what about doing work as a lawyer or being a university professor (especially in fields that are more practical) is more inherently N? I'm surprised that there aren't more Ss taking offense to this, as it's basically saying that any serious profession in which extensive knowledge is required is inherently not suited for you, unless you can somehow exercise your "N muscles." Goddamn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)
    What makes you think this is a strictly N experience? I get the feeling that a lot of these anecdotes about "growing up N around Ss" are nothing other than the result of bad thinking coupled with some sort of complex over having been left out at school.

    Guess what? I found MY peers to be fucking boring and stupid too! And I found my parents to be narrow minded, controlling, and traditional. Does that make me an N? Or does that mean I was somehow an S in a majority N environment? That would HAVE to be the logical implication of what you guys are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.
    Can you please tell me what the S worldview is? I'd really like to know what it is that I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.
    Right. That must be the only possible conclusion, because Ss and Ns are so inherently different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique.
    If it feels very "different" and "unique" to you, then it's probably because you WANT to feel that way about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.
    Yeah, because no S feels different or "other."
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #73
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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  4. #74
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    isn't poetry, art, literature, music, science, all a way of "accommodating" intuitive communication style?

    and is this really accommodating, or rather just we live in a world where both intuition and sensing is used by all 16 types.

    I'm quite positive that I use both sensing and intuition.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #75
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    ^^ I like your thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Guess what? I found MY peers to be fucking boring and stupid too! And I found my parents to be narrow minded, controlling, and traditional. Does that make me an N? Or does that mean I was somehow an S in a majority N environment? That would HAVE to be the logical implication of what you guys are saying.
    Just following from this

    I have a work colleague who went to university and her topic of conversation usually include which mansion she'd like to live in, who her role model is (It's Katie price AKA Jordon) and what make-up she recently brought etc .. I find that boring to shit.
    Another colleague went to university and studied Law and psychology .. we have amazing discussions.

    My father is an INTJ and bores me with his theories on how i should live (still love him though) and my step dad who is an ENFJ is sooo fricking easy to talk to especially when we are debating space, time, technology and robot world domination
    My mother is a sensor and although i sometimes roll my eyes, i appreciate what she brings to the table.

    So regardless of the N/S split .. I think i've done a good job of incorporating different personalities to make my life experience as varied as possible.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  6. #76
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    my view on this is that Ne is basically unconscious perception of "Se", taking these details that this "Se" provides and unconscious mind working to find patterns about where those details came from and where they might be going, now these patterns that unconscious mind made from the details are taken into the conscious and those patterns coming to conscious perception is Ne.

    the reason i said "Se", is that its not actually Se thats being used, even tho it basically does the same thing(perceiving the details). Se is when those details come to conscious mind and viewed as they are without further processing(like finding patterns) of the unconscious. Se is objective perception, the objectivity of the perception vanishes when when its the patterns that are perceived by the conscious, not the details itself.

    and Se user trying to figure out patterns isnt Ne, because Ne is unconscious perception of those patterns.

    naturally even Ne types are capable of seeing details with their eyes, but just seeing them doesent mean you are using Se, it means that you are using your eyes.
    so to N its about looking to his unconscious, but for S its about doing extra conscious processing on the info.

    i think it might be easiest to ESTJ, because of tert Ne and Te being capable of seeing facts on external world. also Si and Ne kinda go hand to hand. also i think it might be the hardest for ESFP, because of inferior Ni and no Ne
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #77
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The part of your paragraph that seems contradictory (I really don’t know if this is what Southern Cross was also referring to or not) is that you’re trying to nullify the proposition that Ns and Ss speak a different language while also pointing out how the language is different (the part I bolded). I mean, I get that you were focusing on esoteric wench’s specific claim (impressions, patterns, meaning)- but in pointing out how those impressions/patterns/meanings would be different, you did point out how the language is different.
    Really? I did? Did my text break into wingbats for you there? Or are you seriously saying that having different interests/ways of thinking about things impedes communication? Then how do you communicate with anyone at all?
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  8. #78
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The way I've heard it summed up, the S hears: "What are the properties of this image?" the N hears: "What does this image mean to you?"
    Can't that also be expressed F vs T?

  9. #79
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Really? I did? Did my text break into wingbats for you there? Or are you seriously saying that having different interests/ways of thinking about things impedes communication? Then how do you communicate with anyone at all?
    It seems to me like I answered this in my response. I just came back to edit it, adding more, which might clarify. Yes- having a different way of processing information impedes communication. And the statement "Meaning is okay as long as it's REAL meaning" is indicative of a significant difference.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  10. #80
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ i did get that feeling a little bit from your paragraph too actually orangey haha. just that like... theory on theory isn't always totally illegitimate, or non-real. it's just very filtered. sometimes i actually need to back away from the tangible for a moment to understand what i'm trying to get at, because i have so much of an easier time understanding a theoretical construct, where things can be ordered and even and symmetrical. it feels like a simplification to me, even though to some people it seems like a complication. not to say this makes communication hard, but sometimes i have to double-back in my own mind to understand. i'm sure everyone has to do this with some things. my particular brand just happens to be retreating back to theory so that i can understand the messier aspects of moment-to-moment reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411
    Can't that also be expressed F vs T?
    yeah. i tend to think that all Perception asks the question, what do you see? and each function just returns slightly different aspects of that.

    i just wanted to poke in and say that, much like pretty much everyone on the planet, i've felt a bit "odd" at times, but i can't really isolate it as ever being a result of N/S stuff. my ESFJ mom was my primary teacher/mentor in life and we've always communicated pretty well. we experience more Fe-Fi contention than N/S.

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