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  1. #61
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think you're dead on accurate in this description of the general weakness of the N position. And let me be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to get around this sometimes. I guess my Te (my tertiary function) tries to run regular fact checks on my theories. For example, if I conclude someone is an asshole, it's easy for me to look at the facts to support my theory. But when I'm at my best, I try to periodically step back, look at the big factual picture, and see if the behavior I observe backs of my theory. When I'm not at my best, it's easy for me to let my theorizing run a muck.

    As far as it specifically applies to my understanding of being an S and what this means, let me be the first to admit that I'm starting with the theory and then looking for behavior from my S friends that supports the theory as I understand it. That's why I'm upfront that I welcome S clarification. I know I'm still learning here.

    ================================

    Until a couple of years ago, I didn't appreciate how profound the differences between being an S and N were. But I've come to conclude that this is the most profound difference two people can have. It's not that being S or N changes the way we think. The way we think is pretty much the same for all people. Instead, being an S or N changes what we think about.

    If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.

    Thus, an S and an N can be in the exact same situation and take in radically different information because they focus on different things. This affects how all of our other mental functions play out.

    Think of it this way: There is a chronological component to the way we think. First we take in information (S/N). Then we make decisions on the information we take in (T/F). So back to the profound differences between how Ss and Ns think... if Ss and Ns take in different information from the very get go, then doesn't it stand to reason that all subsequent steps will play out differently because the input is so different?
    A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..

  2. #62
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..
    There ya go! Thank you. My post was so scattered but that is essentially what I was trying to say.
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  3. #63
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    So is there more accommodating? Well, sure, if an N is in an S-dominated environment or family, it will fall on the N to accommodate more. Just as an S in an N-dominated environment/family/peer group will probably have to accommodate more to the N's. There is comfort/ease with connection and similarity - so whomever is more in the majority -- of whatever personality trait -- will feel the need to accommodate less. I mean, as a non S/N example, I know that I tend to be pretty uncomfortable / feel out of place with a group of FP-types. My differences in comparison to them, as a group bonding together, become apparent. So...
    I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

    I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But to the OP, I can't deny that growing up, I looked around me and saw all of my peers conversing and talking about things I didn't care about at all, and that I couldn't relate to at all.
    Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

    1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
    2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.


    For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

    Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

    Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

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  4. #64
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well yes, there is this. I wish I had the book in front of me, as I could then provide the actual quotes/info rather than the gist, but I'm reading a book on brain function, and in it it of course goes into all of these crazy exceptions in the world - the people who cannot sleep at all, the people who sleep nonstop, the people who retain amazing amounts of irrelevant detail for decades but have zero ability to synthesize and detect patterns (= 100% 'S'?), people with amazing stress-recovery ability, and on and on. So all of these exceptions to me represent those on the extreme end of any number of spectrums (hormonally/genetically) - and the reality is that many of them ARE for all intents and purposes nonfunctional in the world, or become catatonic. So, there is that.

    But to the OP, I can't deny that growing up, I looked around me and saw all of my peers conversing and talking about things I didn't care about at all, and that I couldn't relate to at all. And it's also true that when I go out with a group of people as an adult, if they are predominantly sensor, I am bored out of my mind, or I find all of them so focused on things I don't focus on. And - there's nothing wrong about that. They would feel likewise with my group of friends. But it means a lack of connection/common ground, and there ARE differences between N's and S's.

    So is there more accommodating? Well, sure, if an N is in an S-dominated environment or family, it will fall on the N to accommodate more. Just as an S in an N-dominated environment/family/peer group will probably have to accommodate more to the N's. There is comfort/ease with connection and similarity - so whomever is more in the majority -- of whatever personality trait -- will feel the need to accommodate less. I mean, as a non S/N example, I know that I tend to be pretty uncomfortable / feel out of place with a group of FP-types. My differences in comparison to them, as a group bonding together, become apparent. So...
    I thought the same thing but I thought that would just lead off in that there are more S than Ns, so mathematically there would have to be more Ns doing the accomodating- too easy.

  5. #65
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

    I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.



    Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

    1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
    2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.


    For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

    Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

    Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

    Or your intuition could finally point you to the fact that, at the end of the day, it's not that serious.
    Or, it could say, maybe I'm the one with the problem!

  6. #66
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

    I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.



    Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

    1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
    2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.


    For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

    Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

    Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

    What about now? You guys talk about school years and home life and growing up. Once you're in college you're independent and free to make your own decisions. Everyone is going to be happier with that situation after their playground and high school years. Teenagers and kids are underdeveloped people who are learning about themselves and haven't fully learned to communicate. Everyone in their growing years is going to feel left out at one point or another.

    Do you still feel left out in the world?

    (Edit: I'm actually just curious rather than disagreeing with your experience.)
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  7. #67
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..
    Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

    I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

    I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

    This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

    I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

    Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.
    Last edited by Esoteric Wench; 05-03-2011 at 09:56 AM.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

    I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

    I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can't hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

    This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

    I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

    Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.
    We understand that. To me, it sounds like you're projecting that S's don't understand you, when really you don't understand S's. And also, I question who you're thinking is an S and who you're thinking is an N, (since you don't understand S's.) I know that you feel left out for some reason. I'm not downplaying how you feel, I don't think any of us are. I'm trying to understand why N's may feel that way, or if they are typing themselves "N" because people don't understand them, or if there's something in the N way of thinking that projects that they can't communicate with S's, or any other factors come into play. What makes you think that the people who understand you are all N's?

    (Edit: Because to me, an S can take University classes and be surrounded by college professors and still feel understood. It sounds like you're trying to look for places where the S would be out of place, since you feel out of place in the world. I think that's what we don't get. I feel that I can understand and make myself understood in most environments, I guess that does confirm what you say about S's feeling understood.)
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    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  9. #69
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

    I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

    I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can't hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

    This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

    I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

    Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.
    Points taken and considered......It sounds more like the operation of intuition in the situation - you know, "possibilities"- at work. And I'm sitting here wondering if it's Ne users more than Ni that feels like they are different- in the sense you are speaking of... or even an NF combination. I dunno. I can't speak for all S types, but all the Ns I'm close to don't feel this way. Unless they aren't sharing it specifically- they get along generally well. The ones I have introduced to MBTI were happy to validate their way of thinking, and it was less of 'This is why nobody understands me' and more of 'this is where I differ from people of other types.'

    You can't fully understand a person's motivations or how they will conclude based on type. Will you be right from time to time? Yes. But it's definitely an individual sport.

  10. #70
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.
    The way I've heard it summed up, the S hears: "What are the properties of this image?" the N hears: "What does this image mean to you?"
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