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  1. #51
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    When I first read about the differences between S and N, I was skeptical if they were valid. I figured that everyone was an S.
    I respect typology for teaching us that not everyone thinks the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Who doesn't accept facts and data first before trying to draw meaning and theory? I think a lot of self reported N's on this site confused "focus on facts" for "not understanding meaning." Secondly, are probably typing people in their lives who talk about the meaning behind the data to be N's. Someone presenting/accepting data before it's connections is an S. In my opinion, theory without established data is useless theory.
    Then that means most of typology is useless theory.

    It's not useless, just unfounded, like the MBTI which is based on making assumptions about Jungian INTJ typology, but is not based in S (reality). Your comment indirectly supports what I've been saying on another thread. For example, the idea that my inferior function is Fe has no basis in my personal reality. It is true in theory, but not necessarily in practice. And it is true in theory only because someone made up a nice-sounding idea about cognitive functions that makes sense in a circular way, but only internally to the theory itself.

    Question: if S = reality oriented, then N = ?
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    How about 2 S types that talk to each other and leave the experience like

    I'd hate to see someone who is totally S or totally N. I don't think they'd make it back from a morning jog alive.

    I think life calls for a measure of each sensing and intution. What makes people different are preferences and comfort in using the functions. So I think your theory would work on the non-well rounded S types (as you asserted). And it would equally work on an elitist N type who looks down on others if they perceive that people can't keep up with them. But the majority of the people who are middle of the road with S and N, regardless of preference, understand the give and takes of communication.

    And I still feel that there are a lot of N types who fail to understand the sensing functions. I think that a lot of Ns take their earlier experiences and extrapolate that into a worldview without taking a moment to realize that most children have some kind of communication and understanding gap with their family and other authority figures, especially when you factor in things like religion and tradition. There are also N types who aren't tolerant of differences as well.
    Sometimes, perhaps most of the time, learning typology makes the differences stand out more clearly, giving an inroad to more intolerance. "You INTPs are all alike."

    Your statement about children and the communication gap reminded me of something that I overheard one day. The 7-year-old son was explaining to his father why he should spend the night at his friend's house. But the explanation wasn't very clear, and so the father responded by saying (and this is an exact quote), "But son, that isn't logical."

    WTH?
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  3. #53
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I respect typology for teaching us that not everyone thinks the same way.



    Then that means most of typology is useless theory.

    It's not useless, just unfounded, like the MBTI which is based on making assumptions about Jungian INTJ typology, but is not based in S (reality). Your comment indirectly supports what I've been saying on another thread. For example, the idea that my inferior function is Fe has no basis in my personal reality. It is true in theory, but not necessarily in practice. And it is true in theory only because someone made up a nice-sounding idea about cognitive functions that makes sense in a circular way, but only internally to the theory itself.

    Question: if S = reality oriented, then N = ?
    See other posts to answer your question.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    See other posts to answer your question.
    Other posts where and by whom? I just wanted you to fill in the blank. Reality-oriented versus [what]-oriented.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #55
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I'd hate to see someone who is totally S or totally N. I don't think they'd make it back from a morning jog alive.
    Well yes, there is this. I wish I had the book in front of me, as I could then provide the actual quotes/info rather than the gist, but I'm reading a book on brain function, and in it it of course goes into all of these crazy exceptions in the world - the people who cannot sleep at all, the people who sleep nonstop, the people who retain amazing amounts of irrelevant detail for decades but have zero ability to synthesize and detect patterns (= 100% 'S'?), people with amazing stress-recovery ability, and on and on. So all of these exceptions to me represent those on the extreme end of any number of spectrums (hormonally/genetically) - and the reality is that many of them ARE for all intents and purposes nonfunctional in the world, or become catatonic. So, there is that.

    But to the OP, I can't deny that growing up, I looked around me and saw all of my peers conversing and talking about things I didn't care about at all, and that I couldn't relate to at all. And it's also true that when I go out with a group of people as an adult, if they are predominantly sensor, I am bored out of my mind, or I find all of them so focused on things I don't focus on. And - there's nothing wrong about that. They would feel likewise with my group of friends. But it means a lack of connection/common ground, and there ARE differences between N's and S's.

    So is there more accommodating? Well, sure, if an N is in an S-dominated environment or family, it will fall on the N to accommodate more. Just as an S in an N-dominated environment/family/peer group will probably have to accommodate more to the N's. There is comfort/ease with connection and similarity - so whomever is more in the majority -- of whatever personality trait -- will feel the need to accommodate less. I mean, as a non S/N example, I know that I tend to be pretty uncomfortable / feel out of place with a group of FP-types. My differences in comparison to them, as a group bonding together, become apparent. So...
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #56
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Other posts where and by whom? I just wanted you to fill in the blank. Reality-oriented versus [what]-oriented.
    My posts. I spent a lot of time just describing in a few long posts what I thought that S and N was, (and why there should not be a communication barrier), I don't need to fill in a blank.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    My posts. I spent a lot of time just describing in a few long posts what I thought that S and N was, (and why there should not be a communication barrier), I don't need to fill in a blank.
    Oh ok, I'll go back and search around for that one word to fill in the blank (I don't expect to find one).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #58
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Yea, good example of a poorly developed N developing meaning and then filling it with facts.
    I think you're dead on accurate in this description of the general weakness of the N position. And let me be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to get around this sometimes. I guess my Te (my tertiary function) tries to run regular fact checks on my theories. For example, if I conclude someone is an asshole, it's easy for me to look at the facts to support my theory. But when I'm at my best, I try to periodically step back, look at the big factual picture, and see if the behavior I observe backs of my theory. When I'm not at my best, it's easy for me to let my theorizing run a muck.

    As far as it specifically applies to my understanding of being an S and what this means, let me be the first to admit that I'm starting with the theory and then looking for behavior from my S friends that supports the theory as I understand it. That's why I'm upfront that I welcome S clarification. I know I'm still learning here.

    ================================

    Until a couple of years ago, I didn't appreciate how profound the differences between being an S and N were. But I've come to conclude that this is the most profound difference two people can have. It's not that being S or N changes the way we think. The way we think is pretty much the same for all people. Instead, being an S or N changes what we think about.

    If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.

    Thus, an S and an N can be in the exact same situation and take in radically different information because they focus on different things. This affects how all of our other mental functions play out.

    Think of it this way: There is a chronological component to the way we think. First we take in information (S/N). Then we make decisions on the information we take in (T/F). So back to the profound differences between how Ss and Ns think... if Ss and Ns take in different information from the very get go, then doesn't it stand to reason that all subsequent steps will play out differently because the input is so different?
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  9. #59
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think you're dead on accurate in this description of the general weakness of the N position. And let me be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to get around this sometimes. I guess my Te (my tertiary function) tries to run regular fact checks on my theories. For example, if I conclude someone is an asshole, it's easy for me to look at the facts to support my theory. But when I'm at my best, I try to periodically step back, look at the big factual picture, and see if the behavior I observe backs of my theory. When I'm not at my best, it's easy for me to let my theorizing run a muck.

    As far as it specifically applies to my understanding of being an S and what this means, let me be the first to admit that I'm starting with the theory and then looking for behavior from my S friends that supports the theory as I understand it. That's why I'm upfront that I welcome S clarification. I know I'm still learning here.

    ================================

    Until a couple of years ago, I didn't appreciate how profound the differences between being an S and N were. But I've come to conclude that this is the most profound difference two people can have. It's not that being S or N changes the way we think. The way we think is pretty much the same for all people. Instead, being an S or N changes what we think about.

    If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.

    Thus, an S and an N can be in the exact same situation and take in radically different information because they focus on different things. This affects how all of our other mental functions play out.

    Think of it this way: There is a chronological component to the way we think. First we take in information (S/N). Then we make decisions on the information we take in (T/F). So back to the profound differences between how Ss and Ns think... if Ss and Ns take in different information from the very get go, then doesn't it stand to reason that all subsequent steps will play out differently because the input is so different?
    I can agree on most of the above.. I can also agree that because the input is different, than the process will be significantly different as well. But I think in the end, many of us can understand the thinking of one way or the other, and I'm not sure it's going to result in a huge difference in communication style, as in the end we may draw the same conclusions working from different aspects. And of course as we keep saying, it's not all black and white. Like I'm not sitting here processing every tiny bit of information in S/F/T/N style like an assembly line, just as you're not putting everything through an exact N/F/T/S process, it's not going to make a huge difference behaviorally. I think that communication of information may come off slightly different, but shouldn't make that much of a difference in developed individuals. (I see where some topic matter may be different as well, especially for people who prefer strongly one way or another.) Another scattered post.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is that the correlation between N communication and S communication are only weakly correlated, and the correlation becomes much weaker when two people are fully developed adults. And even weaker still when other factors come into play, (as skylights mentioned earlier.) (Yes, I realize the irony of the Nness, theory, and lack of facts backing me up. No need to point out the irony. )
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    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I've thought about this somewhat. It's hard for me to get past this fact sometimes. We're all sensors. I don't think we can divide perception. I think we can only say what someone chooses to trust, which leads towards the division.
    It leads toward the N or T idea of a division which exists only in theory. All perception consists in a continuous give and take flow of information. Every Sensor, at least some of the time, puts something indefinable (N) within themselves back into the environment through perception, thus altering their perceptions into something unique to them yet not based on past (S) experiences. One example of N-perception expressed through an S-personality would be paranoia.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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