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  1. #51
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So to me, it looks like someone just trying to shoot holes in Ne's conclusions for no good reason at all (and without even a better alternative). Yet it is simply an internal reason I cannot see, or have ignored evidence of. (I.e. what you call "thinkig for yourself")
    Does that sound about right?

    And you did once mention someone you 'approved' of. It might have been Myers or Quenk, or maybe just Jung himself, IIRC.
    Do you even hear yourself? Provide an alternative?

    How about the obvious, which is people will develop their own variation, depending on a multitude of factors including environment, familial expectations, external demands and yet be a healthy, happy, functioning human being. Try that on for size. Deviating from a theory, yours or anyone's, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the person. But this forum is inundated with pathology-based thinking:

    "Oh, no! Your "order" is wrong, wow, you must be one seriously fucked up person!"

    Ridiculous.

    I approve of individual comments, not people. Context matters.
    Case in point:

    Katharine D. Myers wrote:

    Developmental models imply there is one particular pattern to be followed for 'healthy' development. According to type theory, however, each person develops variations of the pattern whether through choice or adaptation. It is important not to apply any model, including this one, too rigidly to oneself and certainly not to others. A particular adaptation may be serving one well; another may have been useful in the past but is no longer productive.
    What are you going to do now, Eric - accuse Myers of purposely shooting holes in her own family's theory for "no good reason"? She's advocating flexibility in the application of theory, which is an attitude I espouse. The point is, you have always used a rigid, paint-by-numbers, approach to typology and demand that every person fit into your little framework, or else. Everything has to fit, fit, fit, or the world will end. You'd take someone who needs a size 12 shoe, jam their foot into a size 9 shoe, and say Wow! Wooohooo! It fits!!" No, it doesn't fit.

    And the point is, it doesn't have to.

  2. #52
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    You may have noted that I often intentionally communicate in such an open ended way; I'm glad to see people are sharing that they have also seen similar accuracy in the PoLR, which is exactly what I'm describing.
    No problemo, just dont expect me to understand, I am not one of the brightest
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #53
    All Natural! All Good!
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    I wonder if upbringing could influence this? I'm pretty sure I appreciate Ne and trust it (at least in other people). My dad is an ENFP and I have a few NFP friends/acquaintences so I wonder if that would make me appreciate my tertiary opposite. If not, I think my POLR is Fe.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


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  4. #54
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I know for INTP's Se is often high (I seem to be a big exception)
    That's surprising. The majority of INTPs I've encountered admitted to low Se. I don't post on INTPc, maybe the INTPs are coming out different on the functions test there,
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  5. #55
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    That's surprising. The majority of INTPs I've encountered admitted to low Se. I don't post on INTPc, maybe the INTPs are coming out different on the functions test there,
    Often having a high Ne also does give you some traits of a high Se. it's just different how your intentions are. A high Se would look for tangible information around the world that do intrest him, a high Ne would do the same, but not for tangible information, but more for new connections that sparkle an idea or an insight into a more complex apparatus. I once had a best friend who was estp and he was totally into conspiracy theories, while I explained him how I want to build the warp drive. We both on a daily basis had a battle against each other who had the newest, latest and hottest information, but he was so much better you cant imagine. He had like a trillion of friends who supplied him with a zillion of information, he was able chat with over 20 people simoultaneously in ICQ and remember every single one for the stuff he said (well sometimes he could be a slight bit off).

    But he totally sucked at sceptically question some things of his conspiracy theories, to put them into a bigger picture to see for example how they are altering his own life; how his intrest in conspiracy theories does him make appear in front of others (a lot of people made fun of him). He was seldom able to derive a solution or an idea for a problem or issue he had, he always relied on input, he hadnt the ability to see his situation or the World in abstract terms, any discussions like that he always annihilated in a second demanding concrete facts.

    We both had in common that we were total observer, yet both in totally different Worlds.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #56
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Do you even hear yourself? Provide an alternative?

    How about the obvious, which is people will develop their own variation, depending on a multitude of factors including environment, familial expectations, external demands and yet be a healthy, happy, functioning human being. Try that on for size. Deviating from a theory, yours or anyone's, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the person. But this forum is inundated with pathology-based thinking:

    "Oh, no! Your "order" is wrong, wow, you must be one seriously fucked up person!"

    Ridiculous.

    I approve of individual comments, not people. Context matters.
    Case in point:

    Katharine D. Myers wrote:

    What are you going to do now, Eric - accuse Myers of purposely shooting holes in her own family's theory for "no good reason"? She's advocating flexibility in the application of theory, which is an attitude I espouse. The point is, you have always used a rigid, paint-by-numbers, approach to typology and demand that every person fit into your little framework, or else. Everything has to fit, fit, fit, or the world will end. You'd take someone who needs a size 12 shoe, jam their foot into a size 9 shoe, and say Wow! Wooohooo! It fits!!" No, it doesn't fit.

    And the point is, it doesn't have to.
    If that's what you think; you haven't read what I've been saying at all. I always use terms like "evidence" and point out there won't be perfect adherence to any of the orders.

    Not too long ago, there was one or two people whose order came out TiTeNeNiSeSiFiFe, or something like that, and I think there was someone on the F side like that as well)/ I did not try to force them into any "paint by numbers" or anything like that. I pointed out that probably was just reflecting their general function preference, and that they were strong in both attitudes of each. If someone else's results come out similar to the ship order; I'll point that out (and since people are mentioning Socionics, that's another one where #7/8 in Beebe's order ends up 3rd and 4th). There were a couple of people whose order was so out of place, I really could't make anything of it, and I probably turned to temperament/Interaction Styles instead.

    The point is, all I'm doing is looking at the nearest model people's order does fit, to assure them there's nothing wrong, and it is not necessarily incompatible with whatever type they're trying on. So that would be the point you made with the quote from Myers. Again, it's just a different way of arriving at that conclusion from yours. An Ne perspective, which you apparently don't hold. (And you totally misconstrued my words about "shooting holes" in something. That was specifically about an Ni/Ne conflict, not just anything that [you think] contradicts something I say. Myers isn't the one who is here scoffing at other interpretations, and again, you do this more than you present your point)
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  7. #57
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    But he totally sucked at sceptically question some things of his conspiracy theories
    That's funny.. and fits. I think conspiracies, generally speaking, are kind of Ni (if only because there's a strong, single vision there. Rather than Ne, which will skim and swish around multiple notions.. even if there are conspiracies involved). And I think it's common to find it in even ESPs.

    Not exactly related, but there was something about this in Quenk's book. Except it wasn't about general conspiracy theories. It was about conspiracy on a more mundane level. ESFP spouses, for example, who fell back on inferior Ni if their significant other or friends aren't showing up as such and such time. "He's cheating on me", "they don't like me anymore", etc.. It used one example of an ESTP girlfriend who got so paranoid she went and chased her boyfriend down at his friend's house.

    The book touches upon even stranger manifestations of inferior Ni as well.. Where some ESPs start thinking they've been blessed with some kind of special knowledge about something. Ni can be so rare (compared to INJs) that it can be even more dramatic for them apparently.

  8. #58
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    That's surprising. The majority of INTPs I've encountered admitted to low Se. I don't post on INTPc, maybe the INTPs are coming out different on the functions test there,
    I remember, probably over there, seeing a lot of INTP's with strong Ni and Se. This was before I was completely solidified on my type, and it had to make me wonder a bit. Se and Ni are my weakest. But I think this is just from experience. (Contrary to someone who thinks I deny this kind of factor!) For some reason, I became so immersed in Ne, and then a very strong nostalgic Si to go along with it as well, I just never became more conscious of their shadows as others did. The Fi is relatively strong, though (after TiNeSi).

    Evan might be one of those with the strong Ni and Se. (I see he is back, and has gone back to INFJ as well. IIRC, the Ni and Se were part of the reason he wavered between NTP and NFJ)
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    If that's what you think; you haven't read what I've been saying at all. I always use terms like "evidence" and point out there won't be perfect adherence to any of the orders.
    How long have you and I been members? You try and get everything to fit, match, or correlate with MBTI so often I couldn't count them all if I tried, to wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    See, Athenian, it does correspond to type fairly well! (INJ=Melancholy; NF=Phlegmatic. For Wolfy, another match; once again, ISF=Phlegmatic, SP=Sanguine).
    Though, for Orangey, it would actually fit INTP. I remember you used to wear that type. What made you change over?
    Then Orangey had to set you straight that she wasn't INTP. Stop the presses, her result didn't "fit." I had a Chol/Sang/Mel combo. Every system we know of does not have to correlate with MBTI. You even came into a DiSC thread last year, and just had to make all the DiSC results "fit" with MBTI. I still remember wondering if you were obsessed with making everything correlate. ( The thought of Night as an ESFJ was hilarious, I must say.)

    Not too long ago, there was one or two people whose order came out TiTeNeNiSeSiFiFe, or something like that, and I think there was someone on the F side like that as well)/ I did not try to force them into any "paint by numbers" or anything like that.
    I'm talking about a long-term pattern of yours. You want everything to match, fit, or correlate. Your one example doesn't negate the pattern's presence over time. If you want to remain blind to it, hey, knock yourself out.

  10. #60
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'm talking about a long-term pattern of yours. You want everything to match, fit, or correlate. Your one example doesn't negate the pattern's presence over time. If you want to remain blind to it, hey, knock yourself out.
    It seems to me that all manner of Si/Ne likes playing around with correlations and systems like that. Nothing new. ESTJs and INTPs perhaps more than others (just a guess.. I could be wrong).

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