The problem with intuition

[KDude]

Patrick Bateman cares way too much about deep cleanser lotions, honey almond body scrubs, and Phil Collins to be a respectable INTJ.

 

[skylights]

I see "vibes" as a very subtle stream of energy that comes from a mental/emotional connection (either subconsciously or consciously). It definitely is not magical. I have always been strongly aware and sensitive to vibes. I can act like a complete B word just by sending out strong negative vibes to someone and screwing with the emotional energy in a room. Also, this is how one can sense a true "creeper". If one feels the mental/emotional connection of someone as conflicting..... run the FUCK away.

Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!


It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.

Ahah! This! This is exactly what I was trying to refer to earlier! Jean Piaget's theory!

It seems to completely contradict the idea that someone could be born N.

ah, yes.

there's been a lot of recent evidence showing that the stages are neither as clear nor as long as piaget proposed. one problem with piaget is that much of his research was based on his own 3 kids, so while he was obviously a forerunning researcher, his sample size is pretty small. it's been shown that children under 5 are able to conserve numbers, which is abstract thought - and it's been suggested that one of the problems with the testing isn't that kids are necessarily concrete, but that they just don't understand what they're being asked. having abstract thought is one thing, but being able to communicate it is another. there are also other limitations that could come into play regarding kids' abilities to complete tasks, such as motor coordination and memory.

i also wonder about the boundaries between abstract and concrete thought. i tend to think things in large emcompassing "images", and i cannot remember having ever thought in a different way. i use a lot of symbolism, a lot of relation. and children usually begin speaking between 1 and 2 years old, and i would argue that purpose-driven speech makes use of abstraction. "apple" is not the same as an apple - it's a step removed. an idea, a placeholder.

so... yeah. i'm thinking that as very very young children our cognitive preferences are probably not set in stone nor distinguishable, but i'm guessing that by about 1 and a half we'll have solidified and begin to demonstrate them.

 

[Elfboy]

Patrick Bateman cares way too much about deep cleanser lotions, honey almond body scrubs, and Phil Collins to be a respectable INTJ.

being high maintenance and indulging in tangible pleasures has nothing to do with mbti

 

[Totenkindly]

As was pointed out in the original posts, conventional developmental psychology theory says that children aren't capable of abstract thought until their adolescent years. Upon the reading, I remember thinking to myself, "Bullshit."

As someone with dominant Ne, let me tell you that I was thinking in all sorts of abstract ways when I was very young. Of course, I had no life experience and a lot of my thinking was muddled and childlike. But I was reading about philosophy and history and literature when I was in the first or second grade. These are all heavily N-oriented subjects. So looking back on things, I think I was already attracted to ideas over concrete details.

I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)

 

[Xander]

Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.

Not understanding the big picture makes you a sensor? Wow, every dumb person who ever lived is a sensor. Glad we cleared that one up!

Sorry just highlighting, couldn't resist... well I could but it'd be boring.

Anyhow, what about if intuitives and sensors see exactly the same thing, experience it in exactly the same manner but where as sensors will store that specific instance an intuitive will link it in with other experiences? Hence only after a considerable length of time would an intuitive child have enough information stored to actually have a big picture let alone understand it!

 

[Totenkindly]

I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

The Test:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html//cgi-local/build_pqk.cgi

The Portraits link page:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html

Anyhow, what about if intuitives and sensors see exactly the same thing, experience it in exactly the same manner but where as sensors will store that specific instance an intuitive will link it in with other experiences?

I'm not sure, since differences in personality affect both judgment and perception; but the end result is basically the same: The S is more likely to recall the raw data, and the iNtuitive the connections/relationships between the data, context, etc. I'm not sure if that's just the reading of selected data or that the selected data is all that is actually written to memory.

(Put another way, in computer programming terms, the N thinks/remembers in terms of "objects" and the S in terms of "instances".)

Hence only after a considerable length of time would an intuitive child have enough information stored to actually have a big picture let alone understand it!

Intuitives always have to reframe things, especially in the beginning, since patterns are only trustworthy after a certain amount of data has been accumulated (and only within the boundaries of that data).

 

[wolfy]

I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

The Test:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html//cgi-local/build_pqk.cgi

The Portraits link page:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html

ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.

 

[KDude]

This may sound bad, but I'm not a big fan of babies. I mean, they're OK.

 

[cascadeco]

I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)

I think my having two ISJ parents 'stunted' my N-speaking a bit; in the sense that I think I learned at a VERY young age not to ask the more uncomfortable questions, and I then just kept everything to myself. I DO recall an earlier-than-5 moment of saying something or asking something of my father, and I think it must have been something about religion, and he reacted somewhat angrily/dismissively/'you're wrong'. As I wrote in the other child thread, I don't remember much of anything from my early childhood, but I do remember that, and a few other such instances growing up. I learned not to 'be N'.

Now had I been an INTJ, I doubt I would have been bothered as much and would have kept asking the questions. I think my 'F' made me more sensitive to it so I learned to keep everything to myself.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think my having two ISJ parents 'stunted' my N-speaking a bit; in the sense that I think I learned at a VERY young age not to ask the more uncomfortable questions, and I then just kept everything to myself. I DO recall an earlier-than-5 moment of saying something or asking something of my father, and I think it must have been something about religion, and he reacted somewhat angrily/dismissively/'you're wrong'. As I wrote in the other child thread, I don't remember much of anything from my early childhood, but I do remember that, and a few other such instances growing up. I learned not to 'be N'.

I had that experience, except it was for me, "Do not be T or N except in certain safe situations."

I could be T when it meant getting good grades and looking smart.
I could be N when it involved safe information or safe art.

But I had to be very careful: Do not directly challenge either of my parents (my dad insisted on being right; my mom insisted on being wounded), do not challenge the cultural norms. Only interact in socially appropriate ways or in rationally quantifiable ways, and otherwise keep it all to myself.

So the pressure didn't change my inner world and how I thought and experienced things, but it did change the "face" I wore growing up in my family and even in my community.

Now had I been an INTJ, I doubt I would have been bothered as much and would have kept asking the questions. I think my 'F' made me more sensitive to it so I learned to keep everything to myself.

It depends probably on full combinations of personality traits. I do remember trying to engage my parents but just gave up completely by the time I was in middle school; it was a complete waste of my time, and coupled with the instability of my dad's drinking issues, it left my world very unsafe to rock the boat. So my sensitivity in silence was out of frustration with both of them... both of them very thin-skinned but at opposite extremes.

ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.

Maybe you're just a wolfy in sheepy's clothes?

 

[cascadeco]

So the pressure didn't change my inner world and how I thought and experienced things, but it did change the "face" I wore growing up in my family and even in my community.

Yes, this. I didn't change internally, but my internal world didn't come forth for anyone, really. Which also explains why my parents knew/know so little about me (although I'm now in a position to be free and fully open with them and I am confident in that - whereas as a child I was not), and also explains why I was unable to form any real friendships post-elementary through college. I did always bond with my INTP brother, though. Thank goodness I had him! Although... I think/know it was harder for him growing up than I - he had a harder time coping/making sense of things, and that was demonstrated in some of his behaviors as a teenager and young adult.

 

[highlander]

LOL. I used to come up with pretty bizarre solutions to questions that occurred to me- like ‘why is the sky blue’ or ‘where do grandparents come from’- and I’d get pissy too when people tried setting me straight.

Two questions I distinctly recall asking:
- Why is the sky blue?
- Where do babies come from?

I recall being completely dissatisfied with answers to both but have no recollection as to what the answer was.

I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)

(Put another way, in computer programming terms, the N thinks/remembers in terms of "objects" and the S in terms of "instances".)

That's a really good way to explain it.

 

[Xander]

Intuitives always have to reframe things, especially in the beginning, since patterns are only trustworthy after a certain amount of data has been accumulated (and only within the boundaries of that data).

Hence it would be erroneous to say that intuitives are like sensors when they're young. They aren't, they're just lacking sufficient information and time to formulate the necessary picture to reference things to.

 

[stalemate]

Two questions I distinctly recall asking:
- Why is the sky blue?
- Where do babies come from?

I recall being completely dissatisfied with answers to both but have no recollection as to what the answer was.

Yeah I remember at a pretty young age (no older than 10 or 11 but my whole timeline is kid of fuzzy in this time period) asking my mom how is it different to be a "girl" vs being a "boy." I didn't get a satisfactory answer, although I don't remember what specific answer I did get. Looking back, I can kind of remember that the answer was given to me in terms of anatomical differences, but that's not what I was asking. I was asking about the entirety of the person's experience of life. I had no good way to express that though and even if I did, there wouldn't have been an answer.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

one problem with piaget is that much of his research was based on his own 3 kids, so while he was obviously a forerunning researcher, his sample size is pretty small. it's been shown that children under 5 are able to conserve numbers, which is abstract thought - and it's been suggested that one of the problems with the testing isn't that kids are necessarily concrete, but that they just don't understand what they're being asked. having abstract thought is one thing, but being able to communicate it is another. there are also other limitations that could come into play regarding kids' abilities to complete tasks, such as motor coordination and memory.

Exactly. It’s been a while since reading Piaget, but I seem to remember this being exactly my problem with his ‘results’. They were largely based on his own interpretations of what the kids were saying. And in reading his interpretation of what the kids ‘meant’ when they said certain things was really frustrating, because I felt certain even I could understand what those kids meant better than Piaget could. He kept attributing their meaning to something akin of magical thinking- but it wasn’t, it was just too abstract to clearly articulate at that age.

I can remember being little and getting frustrated with people because it almost seemed like they were willfully misunderstanding me. I could understand everything they tried communicating to me, and I didn’t understand why they didn’t understand everything I said in return. And I honestly remember having an absolutely visceral reaction to Piaget’s interpretations when I first read them several years ago, probably because it reminded me too much of that frustration while growing up.

 

[Glycerine]

is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer? he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol). he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.

Elfboy, in all seriousness, low to moderate levels of psychopathy/sociopathy is definitely a competitive edge for jobs that require some level of fearlessness and for being in the business world. Supposedly, there is higher level of psychopathy among CEOs compared to the normal population. Most sociopaths/psychopaths can live fairly normal lives.... only the ones on the extreme end with other stressors end up becoming the serial rapists/killers/anything else.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hence it would be erroneous to say that intuitives are like sensors when they're young. They aren't, they're just lacking sufficient information and time to formulate the necessary picture to reference things to.

You need to distinguish between observable behavior and internal motivations. I at best (and I'm not sure) was saying EP's might resemble each other at the beginning; what you are discussing is unobservable motivation and not of use when you're trying to figure out whether your 3-year-old is N or S.

Yes, this. I didn't change internally, but my internal world didn't come forth for anyone, really. Which also explains why my parents knew/know so little about me (although I'm now in a position to be free and fully open with them and I am confident in that - whereas as a child I was not), and also explains why I was unable to form any real friendships post-elementary through college. I did always bond with my INTP brother, though. Thank goodness I had him! Although... I think/know it was harder for him growing up than I - he had a harder
time coping/making sense of things, and that was demonstrated in some of his behaviors as a teenager and young adult.

I've tried to be open with my parents, but my mom is very S and my dad has issues... My ISFJ sister probably "understands" me the best out of anyone in my family (aside from my ENFP cousin -- we totally get each other -- but I rarely see her). But I wouldn't say I feel close to anyone in my family at all. The people who really understand me tend to be my N friends.

I just am automatically an adjuster, trying to speak the language of people I'm with. The S's in my life just tend to be who they are, I tend to examine the possibilities and be what is needed and project into their sphere of thinking.

 

[skylights]

I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

The Test:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/.../build_pqk.cgi

The Portraits link page:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html

ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.

i always get IFP. i was a very adventurous but not socially extraverted child.

i think they mess up in terms of correlating E-social extravert and F-mushy gushy

 

[Starry]

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality.

One of the things that I have been dealing with for a couple of years now – with regards to my young ENFP son - occurs when I discipline him. Whenever I become stern or firm or present him with a ‘consequence’ he actually believes, or at least expresses his suspicion, that I am no longer his mother but rather have been abducted and replaced by some other ‘mean’ entity.

I noticed him responding to me like this as early as age 3 and it still persists today (although today he may be ‘using’ it more as a way to deflect attention away from ‘getting in trouble’ although not entirely LOL).

I actually didn’t even recognize this as Ne at first…in spite of the fact I am ENFP as well. But then I recalled doing a similar thing as a child with my own parents. What I apparently did was create ‘other parents’ in my mind. And when my real parents would discipline me I would inform them of how my ‘other parents’ would think/feel/react to their ‘disappointing’ treatment of me. Again, I started doing this around age 3.

 

[stalemate]

One of the things that I have been dealing with for a couple of years now – with regards to my young ENFP son - occurs when I discipline him. Whenever I become stern or firm or present him with a ‘consequence’ he actually believes, or at least expresses his suspicion, that I am no longer his mother but rather have been abducted and replaced by some other ‘mean’ entity.

I noticed him responding to me like this as early as age 3 and it still persists today (although today he may be ‘using’ it more as a way to deflect attention away from ‘getting in trouble’ although not entirely LOL).

I actually didn’t even recognize this as Ne at first…in spite of the fact I am ENFP as well. But then I recalled doing a similar thing as a child with my own parents. What I apparently did was create ‘other parents’ in my mind. And when my real parents would discipline me I would inform them of how my ‘other parents’ would think/feel/react to their ‘disappointing’ treatment of me. Again, I started doing this around age 3.

Interesting. My ESTJ wife told me just last night that when she was a kid, she would have an imagination or a fear (even now she isn't clear enough about it to know if it happened as a dream or when she was conscious) that someone was pretending to be her parents and wearing masks that looked exactly like their faces. I thought it was bizarre. She seems confused by it to this day.