The problem with intuition

[King sns]

Okay, I'm about to throw out a lot of bunk here. Read it and take it how you wish. This is just a random thought I felt like posting. Enjoy.

I don't believe that personality develops over time. Infants are seen as having distinct personalities. However, I do believe that environment can influence personality greatly... but not to begin with. Early on, we experience our "true" personality, which remains fairly constant and typically becomes stronger over time.

Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.

So if we start showing our personalities in infancy, how do intuitive types, especially Ne- and Ni-dominants exist?

Hmm... I think this topic would be better presented as, "Ne's and Ni's, how did your functions manifest themselves in childhood?" (As Marm and others ended up answering the question.) Since clearly Ne and Ni doms do exist.

 

[prplchknz]

ages of 3-12 I was very quiet and observant child never talked unless forced to 12 on I started becoming for sarcastic towards people.

 

[sculpting]

Okay, I'm about to throw out a lot of bunk here. Read it and take it how you wish. This is just a random thought I felt like posting. Enjoy.

I don't believe that personality develops over time. Infants are seen as having distinct personalities. However, I do believe that environment can influence personality greatly... but not to begin with. Early on, we experience our "true" personality, which remains fairly constant and typically becomes stronger over time.

Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.

So if we start showing our personalities in infancy, how do intuitive types, especially Ne- and Ni-dominants exist?

I agree with you regarding infants having personality. you can see the dom functions by about 9 months.

My ENFP son and my friend ENTP son both never stop moving at the toddler age...they are just exploring everything around them in a very uncontrollable fashion. They often dont respond when you talk to them as they are fixated on pushing the boundary and seeing what comes next. It isnt really about what they are doing in that moment, but what they will do next? My enfp son wanted to eat holographic pigs at three so he didnt have to hurt real ones as he Ne linked learning about a hologram with being sad about pigs dying for food.

My little INTJ son, at 18 months looked at me and explained in broken monsyllables that if you touch the lightswitch it will be hot. It turns out the sun is brigth and makes the parking lot hot, so since the light bulb is hot it makes the lightswitch hot. Totally broken Ni, but Ni all the same. Nowdays he spins words all around and mixes things up for fun. He made his first pun the other day about sand on the beach and sandals. "Sandels dont feel like sand, giggles". He also thinks that when he dies he goes to another planet and has started explaining what items he would like to take along. He also says the "real him" will leave his body when his memories go away, and the "other hims" will be in his body until his memories come back. Once they come back he is the "real him" again. Routinely the real him goes away while we are driving around in the car. He also calmly explained that since his toenails were now cut he could no longer fight the bad guys if our house catches on fire-he combined three different convos in one sentence and just announced this a few days later.

I just nod and agree and let him tell me about all his odd ideas mostly and try and encourage him and not laugh at him as he gets kinda pissy about it..

So, Ne and Ni are totally there trying to process stuff in these little guys, but due to the lack of previous info, just means it gets processed in a fairly hysterical way and they are really funny to listen to.

 

[Elfboy]

I agree with you regarding infants having personality. you can see the dom functions by about 9 months.

My ENFP son and my friend ENTP son both never stop moving at the toddler age...they are just exploring everything around them in a very uncontrollable fashion. They often dont respond when you talk to them as they are fixated on pushing the boundary and seeing what comes next. It isnt really about what they are doing in that moment, but what they will do next? My enfp son wanted to eat holographic pigs at three so he didnt have to hurt real ones as he Ne linked learning about a hologram with being sad about pigs dying for food.

My little INTJ son, at 18 months looked at me and explained in broken monsyllables that if you touch the lightswitch it will be hot. It turns out the sun is brigth and makes the parking lot hot, so since the light bulb is hot it makes the lightswitch hot. Totally broken Ni, but Ni all the same. Nowdays he spins words all around and mixes things up for fun. He made his first pun the other day about sand on the beach and sandals. "Sandels dont feel like sand, giggles". He also thinks that when he dies he goes to another planet and has started explaining what items he would like to take along. He also says the "real him" will leave his body when his memories go away, and the "other hims" will be in his body until his memories come back. Once they come back he is the "real him" again. Routinely the real him goes away while we are driving around in the car. He also calmly explained that since his toenails were now cut he could no longer fight the bad guys if our house catches on fire-he combined three different convos in one sentence and just announced this a few days later.

I just nod and agree and let him tell me about all his odd ideas mostly and try and encourage him and not laugh at him as he gets kinda pissy about it..

So, Ne and Ni are totally there trying to process stuff in these little guys, but due to the lack of previous info, just means it gets processed in a fairly hysterical way and they are really funny to listen to.

INJ children are so much fun lol. my INTJ best friend legitimately believed he was Batman up until he was in 5th grade and would consistantly correct anyone who didn't refer to him as Bruce Wayne. also, I guess you don't tell an INTJ child that a fairytale or children's story is real, because they will believe you and do something about it.

for instance, someone once told him there was a castle in our neighborhood and he was convinced that it was a certain house (so naturally, in archtypical NTJ 8w7 fashion, he goes off to make battle plans and take over the castle). so we don't see him for weeks and the whole time he is in his room planning and making potato cannons that he strategically set up around the house and somehow made them go off at consistant intervals when he did decide to attack. he even outsourced the making of the potato canons, having one person give him potatos, another supply him with other materials and 3 other people help him put various things together. when he did decide to attack, the canons broke through the windows at all sides of the house while he slipped through the air went. once he got inside, he realized that this indeed was a regular house and slipped back out and into his room, frustrated and immediately coming up with his next plan of action. the funny thing was that he was 8 years old at the time and the police never found out it was really him lol

another time his parents left him when he was 7 and told him to "find his own food" so he assumes this means go out and hunt something. he goes and finds a cat that he seduces and it comes over to him (cats have always loved him for some reason). immediately, he grabbed it by the tale and knocked it unconscious with a rock. then he took it, threw it a pot of boiling water and tried to cook it. unfortunately (well for him at least) it woke up in the middle of the process, jumped out and scurried out the door.

when in grade school, he was really small and got picked on a lot, so what he would slip away and plot the demise of the children who picked on him by making plans in the dirt. frequently, he would take much longer than the alotted recess time and the teacher would have to come back out to get him an hour later

in short, he was like a real life Stewie Griffin

 

[Totenkindly]

It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.

I think you need to consider intuition on the level of the child in question.

I had one Se primary kid, and he showed Se by getting into everything, always being "on," always interacted, always doing something, from literally Day #1.

Functions always start in raw, simple form, and then develop both via experience and age/maturity and with use. I would expect Ne/Se to both express themselves originally as primary exploration and interaction with the environment, and then start to differentiate as physical maturation continues. So you'd be aware of Pe-style behavior that then becomes more detailed and nuanced into one or the other.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

My little INTJ son, at 18 months looked at me and explained in broken monsyllables that if you touch the lightswitch it will be hot. It turns out the sun is brigth and makes the parking lot hot, so since the light bulb is hot it makes the lightswitch hot. Totally broken Ni, but Ni all the same. Nowdays he spins words all around and mixes things up for fun. He made his first pun the other day about sand on the beach and sandals. "Sandels dont feel like sand, giggles". He also thinks that when he dies he goes to another planet and has started explaining what items he would like to take along. He also says the "real him" will leave his body when his memories go away, and the "other hims" will be in his body until his memories come back. Once they come back he is the "real him" again. Routinely the real him goes away while we are driving around in the car. He also calmly explained that since his toenails were now cut he could no longer fight the bad guys if our house catches on fire-he combined three different convos in one sentence and just announced this a few days later.

I just nod and agree and let him tell me about all his odd ideas mostly and try and encourage him and not laugh at him as he gets kinda pissy about it..

LOL. I used to come up with pretty bizarre solutions to questions that occurred to me- like ‘why is the sky blue’ or ‘where do grandparents come from’- and I’d get pissy too when people tried setting me straight. One example that comes to mind, for years I believed that people were either born children or grandparents: if you were born a grandparent, then you got to live on your own right away- but children took longer to raise so they had to live with the parents. It absolutely blew my mind that parents actually become grandparents when the children grow up and have kids, and I refused to believe it at first. My sister and I got in a lot of fights over stuff like this- and I remember being incredulous time and time again when my parents would explain how one of my theories was wrong. And then when I got older, kids outside the family started making fun of me for it- so I learned to keep my crackpot theories to myself.

And I saw this in my son when he was younger too. I’m fairly certain he’s INFJ. The funniest example that comes to mind is when he tried explaining to me how the cousins on his dad’s side of the family aren’t “really” his cousins. He was seven years old when this happened. His explanations were always so thorough, so completely thought out- and he was furious with me for not listening to him. He was wholeheartedly convinced that dads are the guys that happen to be in the room when a baby is born, but have no biological connection. He had an attitude like, “I don’t know where you get your information, Mom, but have you even thought about what you’re saying?” I had to get books with pictures to prove that sperm + egg = baby. And it was hilarious to me because I could totally recognize the horrified “How could this possibly be true? If I was wrong about this, what else am I wrong about? This changes everything…” expression on his face. He was stunned for days (and it wasn’t just from learning how babies are made- it’s a process that he went through whenever one of his theories was proven wrong, a process I remember all too well).

 

[/DG/]

you dont believe that personality develops over time? . its pretty much as accepted fact in psychology than mars is in astronomy..

Let me sort of rephrase what I was trying to say. I think we're born with the... er... instinct? (needs a better word) to act in certain ways. Personality can certainly be affected by life events, but it looks like nature prevails here. The reason why you may be different as you grow older seem to be the product of a few major things... 1. learning new skills 2. maturity level and 3. development of a mental disorder.

I'm kind of making this up as I go and I'm not claiming to be an expert. Just throwing ideas around.

Oh, and I'd like to watch your video, but I'll have to do it later when I get the sound fixed on my computer.

children cant understand big picture as well as adults can because their brains arent developed enough yet, but that doesent mean that they cant be more focused on big picture more than details.

This is a great opinion and I can't say I'd disagree with it. That's the great thing about nonsense threads like these... you get new perspectives and ideas thrown at you.

mbti is one reason why I don't trust such studies. with 70-80% of children being sensors, of course the data would show this.

Good point.

i do disagree that personality changes over time, but i would agree that this is true - after all, neurologically, we have to form more connections quite literally to be able to make more mental connections. but i don't think that necessarily means our pattern of thought is impossible - we'd just have less connections to work with. when i was little it was so clear how everything was interrelated. i mean, it still is, but the field is bigger, more complex. more fun to navigate, yes, and more tangible, but also wider. i was a very exploratory but also spiritually serious kid. i've only developed my layer of grounded practicality more recently. it used to manifest as a more theoretical curiosity.

I think you need to consider intuition on the level of the child in question.

I had one Se primary kid, and he showed Se by getting into everything, always being "on," always interacted, always doing something, from literally Day #1.

Functions always start in raw, simple form, and then develop both via experience and age/maturity and with use. I would expect Ne/Se to both express themselves originally as primary exploration and interaction with the environment, and then start to differentiate as physical maturation continues. So you'd be aware of Pe-style behavior that then becomes more detailed and nuanced into one or the other.

Great post and I agree with you.

So if Ne and Se seek to explore the world, what does Ni look like in young children?

 

[SilverMoon]

Hi everyone i am new to this site but i just find what you are saying is interesting. i have a 2 yr old son and 1 yr old twins (boy and a girl). and i know childern do have different personalities just from seeing my three interact and play. i just love watching them lol like my little girl she must be a introvert cuz when she meets other people she starts acting shy and will cry. but my boys are very friendly so they must be extroverts. but i found interesting with my 2 yr old is he seems so ordered, like he has to have things in a certain place, like he has to have his cup when he is eating sitting in the right place or he gets mad lol and whenever its bed time he has a routine he likes to follow every night, he has to bring me his blanket (yes he carries a blanket around everywhere and he loves it and has to have it ever since he was born he had it lol its cute) but he also gives me his cup and he has to have his cup too lol and he will go to the stairs and point at the light switch for me to turn it on and he goes up the stairs with me following him. lol i dont know i just think that is cool lol im just so proud of my babies i could talk about them for hours lol sorry but yeah i think he is an E and a J i just dont know yet about the other i think he might be S and maybe a F cuz he does have strong emotions lol he has a strong personality. he acts like a little man

 

[stalemate]

I wondered if when my mother said yes I was actually hearing no. I was questioning if my perception (input) aligned with what other people were doing or saying (output).

Pretty simple, but I was also a small child.

I was the same. I can also remember sitting around pondering what I would later know as basically the "brain in a jar" theory when I was about 5 years old. Wondering if my parents actually existed when I wasn't observing them, were they just stimulus in my brain or were they real, that sort of thing. Not ground breaking thought or anything, but stuff that I wouldn't really find again until I left my small town and had philosophy classes in college.

 

[Glycerine]

You can send out vibes. That's real.

i tend to assume that "vibe" is a mental message carried out through extremely subtle physical changes (movement, smell, etc) - not really "magical" - but it's extraordinarily clear that, whatever it is, it's real. just get around horses sometime and vibe something. you'll see. if you really want them to come near, even if your overt body language is saying no, they'll often come check you out. or vice versa - if you're scared, even though you're trying to put on a confident facade, they'll respond to that, too.

I see "vibes" as a very subtle stream of energy that comes from a mental/emotional connection (either subconsciously or consciously). It definitely is not magical. I have always been strongly aware and sensitive to vibes. I can act like a complete B word just by sending out strong negative vibes to someone and screwing with the emotional energy in a room. Also, this is how one can sense a true "creeper". If one feels the mental/emotional connection of someone as conflicting..... run the FUCK away.

 

[Randomnity]

INJ children are so much fun lol. my INTJ best friend legitimately believed he was Batman up until he was in 5th grade and would consistantly correct anyone who didn't refer to him as Bruce Wayne. also, I guess you don't tell an INTJ child that a fairytale or children's story is real, because they will believe you and do something about it.

for instance, someone once told him there was a castle in our neighborhood and he was convinced that it was a certain house (so naturally, in archtypical NTJ 8w7 fashion, he goes off to make battle plans and take over the castle). so we don't see him for weeks and the whole time he is in his room planning and making potato cannons that he strategically set up around the house and somehow made them go off at consistant intervals when he did decide to attack. he even outsourced the making of the potato canons, having one person give him potatos, another supply him with other materials and 3 other people help him put various things together. when he did decide to attack, the canons broke through the windows at all sides of the house while he slipped through the air went. once he got inside, he realized that this indeed was a regular house and slipped back out and into his room, frustrated and immediately coming up with his next plan of action. the funny thing was that he was 8 years old at the time and the police never found out it was really him lol

another time his parents left him when he was 7 and told him to "find his own food" so he assumes this means go out and hunt something. he goes and finds a cat that he seduces and it comes over to him (cats have always loved him for some reason). immediately, he grabbed it by the tale and knocked it unconscious with a rock. then he took it, threw it a pot of boiling water and tried to cook it. unfortunately (well for him at least) it woke up in the middle of the process, jumped out and scurried out the door.

when in grade school, he was really small and got picked on a lot, so what he would slip away and plot the demise of the children who picked on him by making plans in the dirt. frequently, he would take much longer than the alotted recess time and the teacher would have to come back out to get him an hour later

in short, he was like a real life Stewie Griffin

Ummmmm....are you sure that when you say "INTJ", you don't mean "psychopath"? Not that the terms are mutually exclusive. But that is one scary child. Especially boiling a cat alive.

 

[SilverMoon]

this is cool..
Some Characteristics of the INFJ Child-Some Behaviors to Look For
•INFJ children are intensely thoughtful, private young ones
•Cuddly, happy, cheerful babies…at home; away from home they can be quiet/serious
•INFJ children spend much of their time (all their lives!) inside their heads…very rich fantasy, imagination ability
•the INFJ child can be extremely tuned in to the emotional reality of their family….don’t argue/fight in front of them
•Most INFJ kids are naturally polite, obedient, gentle, patient, considerate kids
•INFJ children are so into their heads they may lag behind mastering some outside physical, sports related activity…they will get it however if interested…just don’t rush them
•INFJ children are naturally tuned into music, fantasy, literature and like to sit and engage in these things early on
•In school INFJ children usually exhibit a love of learning, reading, stories, myths, fairy tales and are very creative
•the INFJ child will easily excel in writing, music, painting, other fine artsy expressions
•the INFJ can be very stubborn when their mind is made up
•the INFJ may hang back from group activities of all kinds unless they know a few of the participants well…don’t push your INFJ into new group things too quickly
•the INFJ will need to spend a lot of time alone…you guessed it….in their heads
•the INFJ will show a marked tendency toward perfectionism
•as they become adolescent their will exhibit more future concerns, future thinking
•the INFJ penchant for future and perfectionist thinking can trouble them greatly as they consider operating in the outside world

 

[Glycerine]

Ummmmm....are you sure that when you say "INTJ", you don't mean "psychopath"? Not that the terms are mutually exclusive. But that is one scary child. Especially boiling a cat alive.

yeah..... all I could think of was a school shooter or a serial killer in the making.

 

[Elfboy]

Ummmmm....are you sure that when you say "INTJ", you don't mean "psychopath"? Not that the terms are mutually exclusive. But that is one scary child. Especially boiling a cat alive.

he had issues as a kid, but he's very gentle now. although he still had practically zero emotions. the ones he does have come out at strange times though, for instance, random movies will make him bawl his eyes out (for instance, he cries when he watches Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, I don't know why lol)

 

[Thalassa]

he had issues as a kid, but he's very gentle now. although he still had practically zero emotions. the ones he does have come out at strange times though, for instance, random movies will make him bawl his eyes out (for instance, he cries when he watches Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, I don't know why lol)

Ah, yes, the Ni/Te ingenuity of the hungry child seducing a cat for food. Imaginative and practical, indeed.

I'm going to have to agree that doesn't seem sociopathic. I love cats, and for some reason I actually laughed at that story, picturing this INTJ child being afraid his parents wouldn't feed him.

I think sociopaths torture animals for pleasure, and they do it more consistently.

 

[Elfboy]

Ah, yes, the Ni/Te ingenuity of the hungry child seducing a cat for food. Imaginative and practical, indeed.

I'm going to have to agree that doesn't seem sociopathic. I love cats, and for some reason I actually laughed at that story, picturing this INTJ child being afraid his parents wouldn't feed him.

I think sociopaths torture animals for pleasure, and they do it more consistently.

I wouldn't say he did it for pleasure, but he has killed a number of animals that attacked him and said he got a kick out of it. the funny thing is, these aren't even his most extreme stories

 

[Thalassa]

I wouldn't say he did it for pleasure, but he has killed a number of animals that attacked him and said he got a kick out of it. the funny thing is, these aren't even his most extreme stories

Oh...I see.

I thought it was just a case of a frightened child seriously thinking he had to hunt for his own food.

If there are more incidents, I believe your friend might have some problems.

 

[Elfboy]

Oh...I see.

I thought it was just a case of a frightened child seriously thinking he had to hunt for his own food.

If there are more incidents, I believe your friend might have some problems.

he did when he was younger but he's mellowed out and gotten much more gentle, although before that he went from Stewie Griffin to hardcore gangster to Patrick Bateman (and this was before he even saw American Psycho or Family Guy lol). he was wonderful social skills lots of women are extremely attracted to him, but he says that the only people he really feels an emotional connection with are me and a few FP women (he says FP women really turn him on but he hates FJ women lol)

 

[Thalassa]

he did when he was younger but he's mellowed out and gotten much more gentle, although before that he went from Stewie Griffin to hardcore gangster to Patrick Bateman (and this was before he even saw American Psycho or Family Guy lol). he was wonderful social skills lots of women are extremely attracted to him, but he says that the only people he really feels an emotional connection with are me and a few FP women (he says FP women really turn him on but he hates FJ women lol)

Typical.

Still, he may be emotionally disturbed, are you completely certain that none of these childhood traits have carried over into adulthood, or just that as a grown man he's become a more charming sociopath?

Because generally sociopaths are quite charming.

 

[Quinlan]

Faces in the woodgrain! I remember that.