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The problem with intuition

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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Okay, I'm about to throw out a lot of bunk here. Read it and take it how you wish. This is just a random thought I felt like posting. Enjoy.

I don't believe that personality develops over time. Infants are seen as having distinct personalities. However, I do believe that environment can influence personality greatly... but not to begin with. Early on, we experience our "true" personality, which remains fairly constant and typically becomes stronger over time.

Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.

So if we start showing our personalities in infancy, how do intuitive types, especially Ne- and Ni-dominants exist?
 

Thalassa

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Oh that's easy for me. I used to wonder when I was a teenager why it was so difficult for some people to see things that I saw or that some of my friends saw.

I don't think it's all that weird. I remember questioning perception when I was about four.

We're just very imaginative children and may have a very difficult time paying attention or even fitting in with other kids while in elementary school.

I used to wonder why I couldn't just manage things and "be normal." Now I know.

Thanks for asking. :)
 

Thalassa

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I also think you're questioning this from the perspective of someone who developed intuition later in life. So it seems impossible to you, maybe.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!

I also think you're questioning this from the perspective of someone who developed intuition later in life. So it seems impossible to you, maybe.
It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.
 

Sunny Ghost

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in what way did you question perception?

i definitely, as a child, had a very Fi/Se way of interacting with the world. child in a bubble, observing and never interacting.

but i've been curious in this as well. how does an Ni or Ne child look at and question the world versus an Si or Se child. i liked learning hands on and on my own. but i also recall as a young child, 4 to 5, questioning if the world was flat, and if so, could you walk to the edge. and just other things of that nature.

it may take children time to Understand the big picture... but that doesn't mean children don't question it. when you're new to this place, you can't help but to have questions and wonder. "why is the sky blue?" "why is the grass green?" children are always full of questions and curiosity.
 

Thalassa

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I wondered if when my mother said yes I was actually hearing no. I was questioning if my perception (input) aligned with what other people were doing or saying (output).

Pretty simple, but I was also a small child.

I'm not entirely sure how the dominant function develops exactly, but I do think it becomes extraordinarily obvious during the teen years.
 

InvisibleJim

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Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!

It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.

Context is important.

For example if 85% of children can't see the big picture and 15% of children can.

Poor Journalism said:
Children can't see the big picture!!
 

KDude

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I'm not sure if I was questioning perception exactly. Umm, I remember crying once for seeing faces in woodgrains, for example. I remember huddling in a corner, and my mom couldn't even comfort me. I kind of think my attitude was ISFP for the most part though. I drew a lot, but it was more S.. in that I was borrowing ideas from comic books and stuff. I think I had more problems understanding rules, which is just Fi. The highlight is when I broke into my elementary school once and peed on a teacher's desk, because I didn't like how he bounced girls on his lap. If there was a big picture there, it's just that I saw that authority didn't matter, and that he was of bad character. I had the moral high ground. Also, I never quite situated myself in the kind of fun other kids did. One of the best memories was when we went to a field trip and I got to hear a symphony. I can say for sure that my imagination shot into the stratosphere that day. I sat through the whole thing, not talking, just had my eyes closed the whole time, and every song produced a running story in my head. Conversely, the loneliest moment in school was a day at the park. Everyone seemed to be having fun, and I sat on the sidelines.. watching the other kids dance and jump rope to Rob Base. Even if I was S, I never could dance (I still can't unfortunately), nor did I attach myself to what present trends were occurring. I didn't like a lot of things they were into or that might have helped me be cooler.
 

Thalassa

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OMG I love your peeing on the desk story. That is fantastic. That beats the hell out of my eight year old episode of walking out the front door stark naked after a bath because I literally forgot I had no clothes on. Ah, sweet obliviousness.

I saw faces in the woodgrain too - I grew up in a log cabin which also had other wood paneling - except I always presumed the faces were friendly.

My raggedy ann doll, on the other hand, was bound to come to life and attack me like that clown in Poltergeist. And this porcelain doll my grandfather bought me had it in for me too, I swear.

That all came, of course, after I was certain that Lester from the ABC Storytime show was going to hide under my bed and inject me with poisoned needles if I fell asleep.
 

wolfy

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There was this girl I liked in primary school and my intuition told me she could be mine if I won the school tennis tournament. She was in the crowd, up the front at the finals. I lost.
 
G

Glycerine

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At age 5, I remember trying to manipulate the mood of the room and sending out bad vibes to make the people around me uncomfortable so they would leave me alone.
 

wolfy

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At age 5, I remember trying to manipulate the mood of the room and sending out bad vibes to make the people around me uncomfortable so they would leave me alone.

I still do that. I still feel my vibes affect the room.
 
G

Glycerine

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No fair! When I try to do it, people want to bug me EVEN MORE. What gives? lol
 

INTP

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Okay, I'm about to throw out a lot of bunk here. Read it and take it how you wish. This is just a random thought I felt like posting. Enjoy.

I don't believe that personality develops over time. Infants are seen as having distinct personalities. However, I do believe that environment can influence personality greatly... but not to begin with. Early on, we experience our "true" personality, which remains fairly constant and typically becomes stronger over time.

Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.

So if we start showing our personalities in infancy, how do intuitive types, especially Ne- and Ni-dominants exist?

you dont believe that personality develops over time? :shock: . its pretty much as accepted fact in psychology than mars is in astronomy..

yes even small children show signs of personality even at very young age, but most of those sides of personality isnt related to MBTI. extraversion is one thing that can be noticed at quite young age tho, but not like from a new born(none of the personality traits can be shows that young). about nature vs nurture i suggest watching this http://www.vega.org.uk/video/programme/11 . we dont experience our "true" personality as young children, we are very different people as age of 10 and 30, only some basic parts(first functions in MBTI terms) of our personality remain, but we develop quite alot and if you look at whole person, we are were different when we are children and adults. so it doesent come stronger or remain constant, some parts remain reasonably constant, come stronger, but new stuff also grows in us.

children cant understand big picture as well as adults can because their brains arent developed enough yet, but that doesent mean that they cant be more focused on big picture more than details. even with adults Se vs Ne users, the Se user might be more able to see the big picture than the Ne user, but Ne user just focuses automatically on it more, and automatic focus doesent equal being good at it..
 

Thalassa

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At age 5, I remember trying to manipulate the mood of the room and sending out bad vibes to make the people around me uncomfortable so they would leave me alone.

You can send out vibes. That's real.
 

lunalum

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So if we start showing our personalities in infancy, how do intuitive types, especially Ne- and Ni-dominants exist?

I wonder about this too. I don't know to what extent an infant can have 'cogntive processes,' but I have heard that I/E can begin to be seen in babies (perhaps in relative activity level, expressiveness, etc.) I'm not sure how a baby would intuit much of anything, but I do think a child of about age 2-4 could show signs of N.

For example: my parents have stated that I was first and foremost, an explorer and an escape artist. I could not just stay in one place, and if there was an obstacle in my way, I was persistent in getting around it. I was walking at 9 months old and always climbing over my crib, baby gates, up on shelves... and many pictures reveal me as a very smiley baby. At age three I was probably much the same, wanting to do anything outside, with other kids. Like, I wanted to ride tricycles with my sister this one time, and at first I simply wanted to do it because I could see they were having fun and I was not... but once I was told that I couldn't because I was so little, I wanted to do it more for the concept of it, for not being limited. By age 4, I think there was a clear focus on simply not having things as the way they are, seeing things in terms of their potential rather than what they are, and avoiding boredom as much as possible. I figured out ways to open all the doors I could not reach. I drew on the walls and thought I was doing so as a service because the walls were so boring before. These things, from an adult standpoint, might not seem rather N... but for a child it could be seen as a moving away from the object to the concept of it. Also one strangely abstract thing that I did at that age is that I could see three glowing letters from a window in my house "OTE." I was scared of them at first because they made me think somehow that something is haunted, but then I rearranged the letters backwards, and decided that this was the name of an imaginary ghost girl who was represented by the number 8 and wanted to be a friend rather than scare me. I was also a major questioner shortly after that, like many other kids were, but I think I was rather persistent about it, and I would ask the question of "why" the sky is blue in both the sense of how it projects blue light and actually why it does so. I confused both adults and myself with that one.

So yeah.... anyway, children can probably intuit things at quite a young age, and very basic personality trends can be present even in babies.
 

Elfboy

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Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!


It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.

mbti is one reason why I don't trust such studies. with 70-80% of children being sensors, of course the data would show this.
 

skylights

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Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!


It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.


i do disagree that personality changes over time, but i would agree that this is true - after all, neurologically, we have to form more connections quite literally to be able to make more mental connections. but i don't think that necessarily means our pattern of thought is impossible - we'd just have less connections to work with. when i was little it was so clear how everything was interrelated. i mean, it still is, but the field is bigger, more complex. more fun to navigate, yes, and more tangible, but also wider. i was a very exploratory but also spiritually serious kid. i've only developed my layer of grounded practicality more recently. it used to manifest as a more theoretical curiosity.

KDude said:
The highlight is when I broke into my elementary school once and peed on a teacher's desk, because I didn't like how he bounced girls on his lap. If there was a big picture there, it's just that I saw that authority didn't matter, and that he was of bad character. I had the moral high ground.

:rofl1:
:hifive:

Marmie said:
You can send out vibes. That's real.

absolutely.

i tend to assume that "vibe" is a mental message carried out through extremely subtle physical changes (movement, smell, etc) - not really "magical" - but it's extraordinarily clear that, whatever it is, it's real. just get around horses sometime and vibe something. you'll see. if you really want them to come near, even if your overt body language is saying no, they'll often come check you out. or vice versa - if you're scared, even though you're trying to put on a confident facade, they'll respond to that, too.
 
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