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  1. #71
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So the pressure didn't change my inner world and how I thought and experienced things, but it did change the "face" I wore growing up in my family and even in my community.
    Yes, this. I didn't change internally, but my internal world didn't come forth for anyone, really. Which also explains why my parents knew/know so little about me (although I'm now in a position to be free and fully open with them and I am confident in that - whereas as a child I was not), and also explains why I was unable to form any real friendships post-elementary through college. I did always bond with my INTP brother, though. Thank goodness I had him! Although... I think/know it was harder for him growing up than I - he had a harder time coping/making sense of things, and that was demonstrated in some of his behaviors as a teenager and young adult.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #72
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    LOL. I used to come up with pretty bizarre solutions to questions that occurred to me- like ‘why is the sky blue’ or ‘where do grandparents come from’- and I’d get pissy too when people tried setting me straight.
    Two questions I distinctly recall asking:
    - Why is the sky blue?
    - Where do babies come from?

    I recall being completely dissatisfied with answers to both but have no recollection as to what the answer was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)

    (Put another way, in computer programming terms, the N thinks/remembers in terms of "objects" and the S in terms of "instances".)
    That's a really good way to explain it.

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  3. #73
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Intuitives always have to reframe things, especially in the beginning, since patterns are only trustworthy after a certain amount of data has been accumulated (and only within the boundaries of that data).
    Hence it would be erroneous to say that intuitives are like sensors when they're young. They aren't, they're just lacking sufficient information and time to formulate the necessary picture to reference things to.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #74
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Two questions I distinctly recall asking:
    - Why is the sky blue?
    - Where do babies come from?

    I recall being completely dissatisfied with answers to both but have no recollection as to what the answer was.
    Yeah I remember at a pretty young age (no older than 10 or 11 but my whole timeline is kid of fuzzy in this time period) asking my mom how is it different to be a "girl" vs being a "boy." I didn't get a satisfactory answer, although I don't remember what specific answer I did get. Looking back, I can kind of remember that the answer was given to me in terms of anatomical differences, but that's not what I was asking. I was asking about the entirety of the person's experience of life. I had no good way to express that though and even if I did, there wouldn't have been an answer.

  5. #75
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    one problem with piaget is that much of his research was based on his own 3 kids, so while he was obviously a forerunning researcher, his sample size is pretty small. it's been shown that children under 5 are able to conserve numbers, which is abstract thought - and it's been suggested that one of the problems with the testing isn't that kids are necessarily concrete, but that they just don't understand what they're being asked. having abstract thought is one thing, but being able to communicate it is another. there are also other limitations that could come into play regarding kids' abilities to complete tasks, such as motor coordination and memory.

    Exactly. It’s been a while since reading Piaget, but I seem to remember this being exactly my problem with his ‘results’. They were largely based on his own interpretations of what the kids were saying. And in reading his interpretation of what the kids ‘meant’ when they said certain things was really frustrating, because I felt certain even I could understand what those kids meant better than Piaget could. He kept attributing their meaning to something akin of magical thinking- but it wasn’t, it was just too abstract to clearly articulate at that age.

    I can remember being little and getting frustrated with people because it almost seemed like they were willfully misunderstanding me. I could understand everything they tried communicating to me, and I didn’t understand why they didn’t understand everything I said in return. And I honestly remember having an absolutely visceral reaction to Piaget’s interpretations when I first read them several years ago, probably because it reminded me too much of that frustration while growing up.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer? he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol). he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.

    Elfboy, in all seriousness, low to moderate levels of psychopathy/sociopathy is definitely a competitive edge for jobs that require some level of fearlessness and for being in the business world. Supposedly, there is higher level of psychopathy among CEOs compared to the normal population. Most sociopaths/psychopaths can live fairly normal lives.... only the ones on the extreme end with other stressors end up becoming the serial rapists/killers/anything else.

  7. #77
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Hence it would be erroneous to say that intuitives are like sensors when they're young. They aren't, they're just lacking sufficient information and time to formulate the necessary picture to reference things to.
    You need to distinguish between observable behavior and internal motivations. I at best (and I'm not sure) was saying EP's might resemble each other at the beginning; what you are discussing is unobservable motivation and not of use when you're trying to figure out whether your 3-year-old is N or S.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yes, this. I didn't change internally, but my internal world didn't come forth for anyone, really. Which also explains why my parents knew/know so little about me (although I'm now in a position to be free and fully open with them and I am confident in that - whereas as a child I was not), and also explains why I was unable to form any real friendships post-elementary through college. I did always bond with my INTP brother, though. Thank goodness I had him! Although... I think/know it was harder for him growing up than I - he had a harder
    time coping/making sense of things, and that was demonstrated in some of his behaviors as a teenager and young adult.
    I've tried to be open with my parents, but my mom is very S and my dad has issues... My ISFJ sister probably "understands" me the best out of anyone in my family (aside from my ENFP cousin -- we totally get each other -- but I rarely see her). But I wouldn't say I feel close to anyone in my family at all. The people who really understand me tend to be my N friends.

    I just am automatically an adjuster, trying to speak the language of people I'm with. The S's in my life just tend to be who they are, I tend to examine the possibilities and be what is needed and project into their sphere of thinking.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #78
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

    The Test:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/.../build_pqk.cgi

    The Portraits link page:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.
    i always get IFP. i was a very adventurous but not socially extraverted child.

    i think they mess up in terms of correlating E-social extravert and F-mushy gushy

  9. #79
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cognativeprocesses.com
    Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality.
    One of the things that I have been dealing with for a couple of years now – with regards to my young ENFP son - occurs when I discipline him. Whenever I become stern or firm or present him with a ‘consequence’ he actually believes, or at least expresses his suspicion, that I am no longer his mother but rather have been abducted and replaced by some other ‘mean’ entity.

    I noticed him responding to me like this as early as age 3 and it still persists today (although today he may be ‘using’ it more as a way to deflect attention away from ‘getting in trouble’ although not entirely LOL).

    I actually didn’t even recognize this as Ne at first…in spite of the fact I am ENFP as well. But then I recalled doing a similar thing as a child with my own parents. What I apparently did was create ‘other parents’ in my mind. And when my real parents would discipline me I would inform them of how my ‘other parents’ would think/feel/react to their ‘disappointing’ treatment of me. Again, I started doing this around age 3.

  10. #80
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    One of the things that I have been dealing with for a couple of years now – with regards to my young ENFP son - occurs when I discipline him. Whenever I become stern or firm or present him with a ‘consequence’ he actually believes, or at least expresses his suspicion, that I am no longer his mother but rather have been abducted and replaced by some other ‘mean’ entity.

    I noticed him responding to me like this as early as age 3 and it still persists today (although today he may be ‘using’ it more as a way to deflect attention away from ‘getting in trouble’ although not entirely LOL).

    I actually didn’t even recognize this as Ne at first…in spite of the fact I am ENFP as well. But then I recalled doing a similar thing as a child with my own parents. What I apparently did was create ‘other parents’ in my mind. And when my real parents would discipline me I would inform them of how my ‘other parents’ would think/feel/react to their ‘disappointing’ treatment of me. Again, I started doing this around age 3.
    Interesting. My ESTJ wife told me just last night that when she was a kid, she would have an imagination or a fear (even now she isn't clear enough about it to know if it happened as a dream or when she was conscious) that someone was pretending to be her parents and wearing masks that looked exactly like their faces. I thought it was bizarre. She seems confused by it to this day.

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