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  1. #61
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Patrick Bateman cares way too much about deep cleanser lotions, honey almond body scrubs, and Phil Collins to be a respectable INTJ.

  2. #62
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I see "vibes" as a very subtle stream of energy that comes from a mental/emotional connection (either subconsciously or consciously). It definitely is not magical. I have always been strongly aware and sensitive to vibes. I can act like a complete B word just by sending out strong negative vibes to someone and screwing with the emotional energy in a room. Also, this is how one can sense a true "creeper". If one feels the mental/emotional connection of someone as conflicting..... run the FUCK away.


    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Ahhh... overly imaginative children! I see!


    It's just that... I could have sworn there were some studies done on childhood cognition and perception that showed that children can't see things like the big picture and other intuitive traits until a certain age.
    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Ahah! This! This is exactly what I was trying to refer to earlier! Jean Piaget's theory!

    It seems to completely contradict the idea that someone could be born N.
    ah, yes.

    there's been a lot of recent evidence showing that the stages are neither as clear nor as long as piaget proposed. one problem with piaget is that much of his research was based on his own 3 kids, so while he was obviously a forerunning researcher, his sample size is pretty small. it's been shown that children under 5 are able to conserve numbers, which is abstract thought - and it's been suggested that one of the problems with the testing isn't that kids are necessarily concrete, but that they just don't understand what they're being asked. having abstract thought is one thing, but being able to communicate it is another. there are also other limitations that could come into play regarding kids' abilities to complete tasks, such as motor coordination and memory.

    i also wonder about the boundaries between abstract and concrete thought. i tend to think things in large emcompassing "images", and i cannot remember having ever thought in a different way. i use a lot of symbolism, a lot of relation. and children usually begin speaking between 1 and 2 years old, and i would argue that purpose-driven speech makes use of abstraction. "apple" is not the same as an apple - it's a step removed. an idea, a placeholder.

    so... yeah. i'm thinking that as very very young children our cognitive preferences are probably not set in stone nor distinguishable, but i'm guessing that by about 1 and a half we'll have solidified and begin to demonstrate them.

  3. #63
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Patrick Bateman cares way too much about deep cleanser lotions, honey almond body scrubs, and Phil Collins to be a respectable INTJ.
    being high maintenance and indulging in tangible pleasures has nothing to do with mbti
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  4. #64
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    As was pointed out in the original posts, conventional developmental psychology theory says that children aren't capable of abstract thought until their adolescent years. Upon the reading, I remember thinking to myself, "Bullshit."

    As someone with dominant Ne, let me tell you that I was thinking in all sorts of abstract ways when I was very young. Of course, I had no life experience and a lot of my thinking was muddled and childlike. But I was reading about philosophy and history and literature when I was in the first or second grade. These are all heavily N-oriented subjects. So looking back on things, I think I was already attracted to ideas over concrete details.
    I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #65
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Now, I've heard that it takes time for children to understand the big picture. When we are very young, we see the world as it is and take things as they come... from a sensor's perspective. Our ability to make connections and extrapolate comes from our knowledge and experience. It can only increase with time. Unless you're some sort of crazy child-prodigy, of course.
    Not understanding the big picture makes you a sensor? Wow, every dumb person who ever lived is a sensor. Glad we cleared that one up!

    Sorry just highlighting, couldn't resist... well I could but it'd be boring.

    Anyhow, what about if intuitives and sensors see exactly the same thing, experience it in exactly the same manner but where as sensors will store that specific instance an intuitive will link it in with other experiences? Hence only after a considerable length of time would an intuitive child have enough information stored to actually have a big picture let alone understand it!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

    The Test:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/.../build_pqk.cgi

    The Portraits link page:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Anyhow, what about if intuitives and sensors see exactly the same thing, experience it in exactly the same manner but where as sensors will store that specific instance an intuitive will link it in with other experiences?
    I'm not sure, since differences in personality affect both judgment and perception; but the end result is basically the same: The S is more likely to recall the raw data, and the iNtuitive the connections/relationships between the data, context, etc. I'm not sure if that's just the reading of selected data or that the selected data is all that is actually written to memory.

    (Put another way, in computer programming terms, the N thinks/remembers in terms of "objects" and the S in terms of "instances".)

    Hence only after a considerable length of time would an intuitive child have enough information stored to actually have a big picture let alone understand it!
    Intuitives always have to reframe things, especially in the beginning, since patterns are only trustworthy after a certain amount of data has been accumulated (and only within the boundaries of that data).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I meant to add this, hope no one else did, but here's a site that actually makes an attempt to describe kids at appropriate stages of MBTI development. It might be interesting/handy.

    The Test:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/.../build_pqk.cgi

    The Portraits link page:
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/kid_portraits.html
    ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.

  8. #68
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    This may sound bad, but I'm not a big fan of babies. I mean, they're OK.

  9. #69
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was just recalling another way to potentially recognize N vs S in young kids: When you parent them, N kids are much better at taking a principle and applying it to various situations all on their own, whereas S kids are more likely to need to hear concrete ways of how the principle is applied and do better with specific rules rather than just very broad principles. (AKA Specificity.)
    I think my having two ISJ parents 'stunted' my N-speaking a bit; in the sense that I think I learned at a VERY young age not to ask the more uncomfortable questions, and I then just kept everything to myself. I DO recall an earlier-than-5 moment of saying something or asking something of my father, and I think it must have been something about religion, and he reacted somewhat angrily/dismissively/'you're wrong'. As I wrote in the other child thread, I don't remember much of anything from my early childhood, but I do remember that, and a few other such instances growing up. I learned not to 'be N'.

    Now had I been an INTJ, I doubt I would have been bothered as much and would have kept asking the questions. I think my 'F' made me more sensitive to it so I learned to keep everything to myself.
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  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think my having two ISJ parents 'stunted' my N-speaking a bit; in the sense that I think I learned at a VERY young age not to ask the more uncomfortable questions, and I then just kept everything to myself. I DO recall an earlier-than-5 moment of saying something or asking something of my father, and I think it must have been something about religion, and he reacted somewhat angrily/dismissively/'you're wrong'. As I wrote in the other child thread, I don't remember much of anything from my early childhood, but I do remember that, and a few other such instances growing up. I learned not to 'be N'.
    I had that experience, except it was for me, "Do not be T or N except in certain safe situations."

    I could be T when it meant getting good grades and looking smart.
    I could be N when it involved safe information or safe art.

    But I had to be very careful: Do not directly challenge either of my parents (my dad insisted on being right; my mom insisted on being wounded), do not challenge the cultural norms. Only interact in socially appropriate ways or in rationally quantifiable ways, and otherwise keep it all to myself.

    So the pressure didn't change my inner world and how I thought and experienced things, but it did change the "face" I wore growing up in my family and even in my community.

    Now had I been an INTJ, I doubt I would have been bothered as much and would have kept asking the questions. I think my 'F' made me more sensitive to it so I learned to keep everything to myself.
    It depends probably on full combinations of personality traits. I do remember trying to engage my parents but just gave up completely by the time I was in middle school; it was a complete waste of my time, and coupled with the instability of my dad's drinking issues, it left my world very unsafe to rock the boat. So my sensitivity in silence was out of frustration with both of them... both of them very thin-skinned but at opposite extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    ITP again. I always get ITP on that test. Must be the questions.
    Maybe you're just a wolfy in sheepy's clothes?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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