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  1. #51
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    When I was 3 years old, a babysitter explained to me that it was "gravity" that kept us on the ground. So, I proceeded to ask her how it worked. Of course, she didn't have an answer (that would satisfy me). I eventually got a Ph.D. in astrophysics.

    You may be right that one's personality (innate way of thinking) is with us from the get-go, but it takes a few years just to apply it to the real world, communicating with people around us. That way of looking at gravity is typical of how I think about everything. It isn't enough for me to stop at "gravity is what pulls things down." I have to know what's really going on, as best as I can. Even now, many years later, I teach myself new computer programming technologies by writing code to model orbital dynamics. There's something that pulls at me. (Gravity pun intended.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post

    How does that work? Isn't sociopathy defined as an inability to feel empathy, like, at all?
    This is why I'm curious about it. Okay, apparently Ted was greatly taken by his first college gf, but she broke up with him because she said he was immature and lacked focus. Well, he became like, incredibly distraught, and withdrew from college, had a nervous breakdown, and drove across the country. It is speculated around the time of this break-up is when his first murder occurred (though according to some who are very suspicious and gossipy, that he's responsible for the disappearance of a girl in his town when he was a mere fourteen years old, but that was never confirmed).

    Anyway, he went back to school, enrolled in law school after graduating, got another gf and seemed to be really normal. But then he started contacting the first gf - apparently to show off how focused he had become - and started seeing her and the second gf simultaneously. The first gf thought they might even get married, but he dumped her suddenly and coldly without any apparent motive or explanation, and later stated that he basically just wanted to get her back to see if he could, and get his revenge by dumping her.

    He dated the second college gf on and off through much of his adult life, and they were both alcoholics, and he reportedly stole jewelry and presents for her. Bundy was committing serial murders behind her back throughout the duration of their relationship.

    Bundy finally married his wife - an old co-worker - through some legal manipulation while in prison. He had a daughter with her via conjugal visits, but they divorced before he was executed when he finally confessed to her years later that he really was guilty.

    I don't know. Many of his victims are said to have resembled the first gf who triggered his initial breakdown, and whom he dumped vengefully later.

    All of his victims were total strangers.

  3. #53
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    As was pointed out in the original posts, conventional developmental psychology theory says that children aren't capable of abstract thought until their adolescent years. Upon the reading, I remember thinking to myself, "Bullshit."

    As someone with dominant Ne, let me tell you that I was thinking in all sorts of abstract ways when I was very young. Of course, I had no life experience and a lot of my thinking was muddled and childlike. But I was reading about philosophy and history and literature when I was in the first or second grade. These are all heavily N-oriented subjects. So looking back on things, I think I was already attracted to ideas over concrete details.

    I remember talking to my INTJ mom about Greek proverbs and whether or not they could be applied in our time @ age 8 <--- Very N kind of activity. By the same token, I sucked / showed almost no interest in S activities. My Sensotard tendencies were already readily apparent. I was uncoordinated and had little interest in paying attention to my body or the concrete world around me. I'd far rather be daydreaming about the "meaning" of everything.

    So yeah. If you're an N, you're an N at birth. I am still blown away by how radically different Ns and Ss experience the world. And it seems that those differences begin with birth... regardless of what some developmental psychologist say.
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  4. #54
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    I can't say I was particularly intuitive in the MBTI sense as a child. I was heavy into the all the Ti stuff though. I didn't really develop my Ne until my teens (consistent with functional development theory).

    I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts. From what I remember about my childhood, I don't recall ever thinking much about abstract or hypothetical concepts at this age. I certainly didn't philosophize or think about things like the real meaning of life until my teens. So if this theory holds true, its hard to see how younger children's N actually manifests.

    I remember in elementary school reading class where I read a story and then answered questions about it. At that time, I did terrible on the sorts of questions involving inferences and deducing someone's motivations. If the reason for someone's action wasn't explicitly stated, I was basically incapable of answering the question. So is this due to concrete operational stage of thinking? Intuition not being well developed yet? Or Asperger syndrome? I did have several Asperger traits as a child, some of which I outgrew as I got older. In my teens, I started making inferences all the time and reading between the lines. So is the change for me from pre-teens to teens due to functional development in the MBTI sense or it is just cognitive changes that could apply to just about any kid? Or a combination of the two?
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  5. #55
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Perhaps there's a difference between an Ne or Ni dominant children and Ti/Te/Fi/Fe dominant children. Maybe, we all manifest our dominant functions at an early age and then as we get older, we learn how to tap into our secondary and tertiary functions. If this is correct, this might explain why you don't remember more about your iNtuition at a young age whereas I do have clear memories of my iNtuition being a powerful force in my young self.
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  6. #56
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts. From what I remember about my childhood, I don't recall ever thinking much about abstract or hypothetical concepts at this age. I certainly didn't philosophize or think about things like the real meaning of life until my teens. So if this theory holds true, its hard to see how younger children's N actually manifests.
    I remember from one of my own psychology classes, after reading Piaget's "The Child's Conception Of The World", thinking he was an asshole. His theories actually made me angry. I could remember enough about being little to know some of the things he said were off (and didn't give children much credit for knowing what they were talking about).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #57
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts.
    Ahah! This! This is exactly what I was trying to refer to earlier! Jean Piaget's theory!

    It seems to completely contradict the idea that someone could be born N.

  8. #58
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well sometimes they don't hurt the people they love. The portrayal of Hannibal Lecter leaving Clarice Starling alone because he felt affection for her is based in reality. Ted Bundy had several girlfriends and a wife. He didn't harm any of them.

    Sociopaths - even those as far gone as to participate in serial killing - apparently are capable of respecting the lives of certain individuals.

    In fact, I wonder why, and what that means.
    is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer? he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol). he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer?
    Yes, and apparently people with APD (anti-social personality disorder) can branch off into varying degrees of emotionality and even feel things for people but be unable to express it. It's apparently a lot more complicated than what was originally assumed. It would have to be, and the reason I get stuck on the Ted Bundy example is because clearly he had something like empathy or values about certain individuals.

    Apparently it's also not unheard of for a psychopath to be able to love their pets but not people, etc.

    he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol).
    Killing a wild animal in self-defense and enjoying the feeling of triumph is not the same thing as intentionally tormenting your next door neighbor's harmless lap dog. That would probably actually fall within the range of normal, I'm sure.

    he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.
    Oh. I think from what you just described he actually sounds okay. He may just be somewhat emotionally troubled from the abuse.

    I can't say - but the clarification that *he killed wild animals which attacked him* (or hunted for food, etc.) makes a HUGE difference.

    Sociopathic torment of animals involves hurting helpless or defenseless things for enjoyment. And his ethic about not hurting anyone who doesn't deserve it sounds like he actually has pretty developed tertiary Fi.

  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, and apparently people with APD (anti-social personality disorder) can branch off into varying degrees of emotionality and even feel things for people but be unable to express it. It's apparently a lot more complicated than what was originally assumed. It would have to be, and the reason I get stuck on the Ted Bundy example is because clearly he had something like empathy or values about certain individuals.

    Apparently it's also not unheard of for a psychopath to be able to love their pets but not people, etc.



    Killing a wild animal in self-defense and enjoying the feeling of triumph is not the same thing as intentionally tormenting your next door neighbor's harmless lap dog. That would probably actually fall within the range of normal, I'm sure.



    Oh. I think from what you just described he actually sounds okay. He may just be somewhat emotionally troubled from the abuse.

    I can't say - but the clarification that *he killed wild animals which attacked him* (or hunted for food, etc.) makes a HUGE difference.

    Sociopathic torment of animals involves hurting helpless or defenseless things for enjoyment. And his ethic about not hurting anyone who doesn't deserve it sounds like he actually has pretty developed tertiary Fi.
    I think his prior problems were more enneagram related. unhealthy type 8s are some of the most dangerous people on the planet and at their most unhealthy correlate with antisocial personality disorder. it would also explain his likeness to Patrick Bateman (another unhealthy INTJ 8). right now he's directing most of his energy towards business because it's the only thing hard and intense enough not to bore him (he is amazingly intelligent, although he refuses to admit it)
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