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  1. #71
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Projection in the negative sense is trolling, correct? Not in all cases, but in some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If a member is that intent on telling another member they're in an "unhealthy loop," they may just be looking at themselves in the mirror and don't like what they see.

    Projections change the world into the replica of one's own unknown face.
    - Carl Jung

  2. #72
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Is constructive criticism judgment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Come on, projection is not what I'm talking about. That's trolling isn't it? The goal of constructive critisism is for positive change; there's a time and place for it.
    Actually, I think all criticism is formed from judgement and that a great deal of it also originates with projection. The projection can introduce distortion but may not always. These things are true whether the criticism is constructive, helpful or not.

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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Actually, I think all criticism is formed from judgement and that a great deal of it also originates with projection. The projection can introduce distortion but may not always. These things are true whether the criticism is constructive, helpful or not.
    That answers my question and makes sense. Thank you!

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Projection in the negative sense is trolling, correct? Not in all cases, but in some.
    People project to attempt to understand other individuals by applying their own values to those individuals. It's not trolling, it's humanising.

    However, I have noted that Ne users attempt to apply projection due to Pe-Ji; this breaks my Ji - MY constant center of gravity, it is clearly unhealthy in another individual.

    Ne wants to mirror the mirror, anything which refuses to do so is unhealthy by self definition and Ne projection defaults to the unhealthy type labels.

    As I said, it's not unhealthy use of Ne; it's just Ne.

  5. #75
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    ...
    Does INTJMom need a hug?
    Yes! I must have been projecting!

  6. #76
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    ...
    Ne wants to mirror the mirror, anything which refuses to do so is unhealthy by self definition and Ne projection defaults to the unhealthy type labels.

    As I said, it's not unhealthy use of Ne; it's just Ne.
    Yeah, that's not okay.

    As I said before, one can only be said to be using a function in an "unhealthy" way when their Dom and Aux Functions go on a vacation and you're left holding the bag with nothing but the Inferior behaving as Dom and the Tert behaving as Aux.

    In my case, I am left using Se and Fi... but not in the same way an ESFP uses them.
    It's all convoluted and like wobbling down the street your first time ever on a bicycle.

    THAT is the ONLY way to use the term "unhealthy"... because I'm an INTJ and I'm ALWAYS right!

  7. #77
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    First nerdgirl, please accept my apologies as I seem to have said things in an inflammatory way unintentionally. I actually am not really debating anyone, or even strictly sticking to the OP, rather just sharing thoughts on the topic and some associated tangents. Please accept my apologies if this came across as offensive in some way. I could have also left details out that I assumed were easy to read in, thus been confusing. It also seems you read a great deal of tone into my post that was not present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Judgment? For heaven's sake, what does this topic, "Unhealthy vs. Healthy - a Failure of Typology", have to do with Jesus Christ and casting stones? This isn't judgment day! "Unhealthy" is just a simple adjective with simple meaning. It's *not* judgment in the same sense as your example. You're taking things out of context. Is constructive criticism judgment?
    To explain the quote about Jesus and stones-to exemplify, if you feel the need to tell me that I am using my Te in an "unhealthy" way, then I will freely be able to tell you that you are using your Fe in an "unhealthy" way...and so on and son on and so on....Eventually the end point will be that none of us uses our functions in "healthy" ways 100% of the time. We are in a constant state of maturation and flux,stress and relaxation, not fixed entities. Additionally, if you are my friend and I request your feedback or we have a close relationship, then it isnt unreasonable to make observations of another's perceived weaknesses. If one is just a person on a message board, without a more intimate or at least friendly relationship, it isnt really in good form to comment about the person's more negative attributes, even if they are somewhat obvious, unless they request feedback or are causing serious issues in interactions, then the mods typically deal with the issue. Often the people who complain the most about others perceived weaknesses have glaring weaknesses of their own.

    wrt-judgement-We could frame this discussion in more global terms, but since the subject area is jungian, it might be best to use those terms. We each contain two out of four scales of judgment. I primarily will judge on an Fi or Te scale. Almost every NTP I meet will fail my Fi judging standards-because it ISNT appropriate to judge them on that scale. They dont use Fi, thus why would they be able to ever follow values or standards they cannot see. It's like giving the blind a color blindness test. Same thing with the other three judging scales and how we apply them to others who are not like us.

    wrt to "healthy", an NTP will fail what my innate Fi jugement would consider to be "healthy". That DOESNT mean the NTP is unhealthy in anyway, just very different from what my internal self projections say others should be like. I have to learn to see past my own projections and understand where my judgments are inapplicable and invalid.

    On the flip side I will often fail the Fe scale of "healthy" as I cant see those values, thus will tend to stumble over them repeatedly. As an example, my entp firend laughs and says my relationship with my INTJ appears co-dependent and unhealthy-from an Fe perspective. From Fi/Te, we are blissfully happy and in love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I think people should be free to tell others they're in an unhealthy loop or that their implementation of a function is unhealthy. This isn't limited to shadow functioning. As I've said before, "unhealthy" is not a difficult thing to spot. There are *widely accepted* ideas of what's healthy and what's not. I have no problem if someone wants to tell me I'm unhealthy and break it down on a function level by implementation. I appreciate the constructive critisism.
    I would say that it isnt until you are hitting the boundaries of a personality disorder or mental illness-diagnosed, not just self or externally applied-that you can legitimately start calling other people unhealthy-where basically all of the judgment scales sort of merge. At that point they are damaging themselves and others in very bad ways...however to go around calling people who are in a stressed out time of life or who may be developing aspects of themselves "unhealthy" can actually do greater emotional damage then just remaining silent and allowing them to sort their life out.

    Are you seeking Fe constructive feedback? I totally dig Te constructive feedback on ideas or action plans. Makes sense in both cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    No and I don't think anyone ever said that in this thread. I know the OP didn't say that. As a matter of fact, you are the first person I've seen make that assumption. Where are you getting that from? Who are you debating? Specifically, how does a weak function look unhealthy if, as you said, you "recognize it"? an example?

    I don't recall anyone ever telling you not to use your less developed functions because it makes you look unhealthy.
    It was a natural tangent off of this thread and many other like it over the years....Just an Ne tangent...? I suppose watching the interplay between jag and INTJmom sort of brought it to the surface along with observations Jag has made over the years. (Although I do agree with INTJmom and her description of what she went though as being a real shadow and not good times, my hugs for you INTJmom)

    As an example, in an ENFP inferior Si often gives rise to compulsive needs to clean or organize really weird stuff like baseboards. By recognizing those urges in myself, I can decide to look deeper and understand the source of my stress, and try and deal with it it, rather than waste a lot of energy on weird obsessive cleaning. Another example is that when under stress I will tend to use Te in a knee jerk fashion to preserve the way things have always been done-Si- out of fear of change and be somewhat control freak like-instead now that I am aware of this, I can stop, think, evaluate if I need to move past my stress response to change things, or if in this case, change really IS a bad idea.

    Simply by being able to observe my own Te and Si and even bits of Ni, it allows me to stop, reflect more deeply, and respond less instinctually. If I choose to use Te or Si, then I can also choose to use them more in a more sound manner and follow through on doing the task correctly and then also question if the task is in line with my own Fi objectives.


    (I hope some of this made sense)

  8. #78
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Unstable was meant as a frame of mind that hinders the correct use of the processes. Not a stable personality that has faulty cognition, from a subjective point of view.
    Okay...I see the distinction you're making. Unstable means emotional instability which clouds thinking versus poor thinking in a generally emotionally stable person. I think it can be hard in reality to find the line between the two in a person, however. My perception of the use of "unhealthy" on this board is that it is referring to emotionally instability which clouds a person's thinking. Unhealthy is not really a word used for poor thinking, usually. So to me, it's the same idea as unstable. Honestly, the idea of poor thinking to me is, er, related to intelligence in many cases.... But that's where it's hard to make a distinction for real people, as an intelligent person with good thinking can still be an "unhealthy type" if they are emotionally unstable, and then their thinking is affected & no longer good.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My perception of the use of "unhealthy" on this board is that it is referring to emotionally instability which clouds a person's thinking. Unhealthy is not really a word used for poor thinking, usually.
    I can agree with this.

    I wouldn't typically call someone else unhealthy, but I do sometimes refer to it with my Fe. I often don't know whether I am an Fe type or if I'm confusing it with my significant social anxieties and insecurities. It's definitely one of my greatest faults as it causes me tons of stress.

  10. #80
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    So again, I'm not understanding what the big deal is about using the words "unhealthy" and "healthy". All I'm hearing is fuzzy logic and over sensitivity to the usage of a simple adjective. Nobody has scratched their nails across a chalk board! Though this thread makes me want to. It's nonsense. I have not seen one logical argument here as to why we should stop using the word "unhealthy". I'd never even fathom asking people to stop using common adjectives in a public forum. I'm just not that particular or controlling. We all should work together and learn to accept our differences and pick legitimate battles. My vote: this is *not* a legitimate battle!

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