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Unhealthy versus Healthy - A Failure of Typology

InvisibleJim

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So again, I'm not understanding what the big deal is about using the words "unhealthy" and "healthy". All I'm hearing is fuzzy logic and over sensitivity to the usage of a simple adjective. Nobody has scratched their nails across a chalk board! Though this thread makes me want to. It's nonsense. I have not seen one logical argument here as to why we should stop using the word "unhealthy". I'd never even fathom asking people to stop using common adjectives in a public forum. I'm just not that particular or controlling. We all should work together and learn to accept our differences and pick legitimate battles. My vote: this is *not* a legitimate battle!

You have yet to provide anything other than fuzzy logic in favour of it.

Therefore you should not believe your opinion to be above others; others understand themselves better than you understand them therefore your opinion is merely a second hand opinion of them and less relevant and thus less important. Without the relevant quality of information and indeed understanding of that other individual then you are using one upmanship subjective judgements rather than trying to expand knowledge and to reach relevant conclusions which legitimately assist others and yourself. It's actually self gratification by labelling another as unhealthy you are merely boosting your ego.

In effect the unhealthy label is little more than mental masturbation: "I disagree with your argument, therefore your F/T is unhealthy, herp derp. I vote that this is not a legitimate topic and you are all unhealthy for discussing it!". Le sigh.
 
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You have yet to provide anything other than fuzzy logic in favour of it.

Therefore you should not believe your opinion to be above others; others understand themselves better than you understand them therefore your opinion is merely a second hand opinion of them and less relevant and thus less important. Without the relevant quality of information and indeed understanding of that other individual then you are using one upmanship subjective judgements rather than trying to expand knowledge and to reach relevant conclusions which legitimately assist others and yourself. It's actually self gratification by labelling another as unhealthy you are merely boosting your ego.

In effect the unhealthy label is little more than mental masturbation: "I disagree with your argument, therefore your F/T is unhealthy, herp derp. I vote that this is not a legitimate topic and you are all unhealthy for discussing it!". Le sigh.

I provided a dictionary definition and a logical argument. I stated the facts. You have not made your case. I'm open to hear it.

I'm among many others that do not agree with you.
 

InvisibleJim

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I provided a dictionary definition and a logical argument. I stated the facts. You have not made your case. I'm open to hear it.

I'm among many others that do not agree with you.

Dictionary, so relevant to the art of understanding individuals?

The point is simple; you don't have the relevant knowledge to responsibly use the label, thus it is false in its use regardless of what the dictionary says or indeed how mighty you view your observations to be.
 
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Therefore you should not believe your opinion to be above others; others understand themselves better than you understand them therefore your opinion is merely a second hand opinion of them and less relevant and thus less important.

As far as your comment about me seeking to have my opinion above others, I'm seeking that you leave people alone and not regulate the usage of the word "unhealthy". That's my goal.
 

KDude

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Dictionary, so relevant to the art of understanding individuals?

The point is simple; you don't have the relevant knowledge to responsibly use the label, thus it is false in its use regardless of what the dictionary says or indeed how mighty you view your observations to be.

Whether it's relevant or not to someone's experience, the phenomenon of an "unhealthy state" exists to you at least, doesn't it? You could very well argue that it doesn't, that nobody is truly unhealthy or healthy, but since we're on a site that's loosely tied to the subject of psychology, then I'll assume that you think it does. Or are you just warning against armchair psychology? When is it valid at all to use the label "unhealthy"?
 

InvisibleJim

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As far as your comment about me seeking to have my opinion above others, I'm seeking that you leave people alone and not regulate the usage of the word "unhealthy". That's my goal.

'I wish to maintain my right to use the word 'unhealthy' when referring to others when I cannot win an argument through logic because it is a topic regarding opinion.'

You are ENTP, I get it :)

Whether it's relevant or not to someone's experience, the phenomenon of an "unhealthy state" exists to you at least, doesn't it? You could very well argue that it doesn't, that nobody is truly unhealthy or healthy, but since we're on a site that's loosely tied to the subject of psychology, then I'll assume that you think it does. Or are you just warning against armchair psychology? When is it valid at all to use the label "unhealthy"?

With regards to cognition, no, it isn't a sensible concept because of how it is used. In terms of behaviour, yes, it is a more sensible breakdown.

I would say it is not valid to use the healthy label with regards to cognition and more importantly, it is often used as a crutch for a poor argument regarding the opinions of others rather than as a logical breakdown of why something should be or shouldn't.
 
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'I wish to maintain my right to use the word 'unhealthy' when referring to others when I cannot win an argument through logic because it is a topic regarding opinion.'

You are ENTP, I get it :)

I don't like petty limitations, dangit!! :tongue:
 
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So why limit the rights of others opinions by labelling them unhealthy or healthy based upon your opinion? Do unto others?

I want to hear others' opinions. From there, I'll analyze and filter the information accordingly. It might be the catalyst for change. How I treat the information, depends on various things; such as, how much I respect the person and how useful the information is. Isn't that how most of us deal with our day to day interactions? We dig deeper if we want to know more.

So with that said, it's about putting things in their proper context. An opinion is just an opinion. A novice is just a novice. When someone uses the term 'unhealthy', I consider the source. "It's judgmental," as some of you have argued, but that doesn't matter to me. I still want to hear it. I'll decide for myself if it's useful information.
 

Orangey

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I guess I must be one of those offensive people who uses the healthy/unhealthy descriptors in this way.
The basis of my understanding of this comes from the book by Naomi Quenk called Beside Ourselves, which has since been revised and is now called, Was That Really Me?.

Besides the book, I have my own personal experiences with which the book has been of immense help.
For example, when my husband suddenly passed away two years ago, the shock overcame me. I felt like a deer caught in headlights for a solid 4 weeks with continuing effects for 2 more weeks. All in all, I know that I was not physically "normal" for 6 months.
The most frustrating part of that experience was that my normal cognitive functions were completely unavailable to me in any way that I was used relying on them. I was an "ESFP" for months and months. I had to make judgements based on my feelings instead of my usual methods which usually include cold hard calculation and research. It was very uncomfortable for me. I KNEW I was not in my "right mind" and there was nothing I could do about it.
As it turned out, when my doctor put me on an anti-anxiety anti-depression medication for an entirely different reason, within 2 weeks, my old familiar thought processes returned to me and I was back to being my old comfortable INTJ self again - as far as my cognitive functions are concerned. I hadn't realized how far away from my real self I still was until the medication made me better. These "Beside Ourselves" episodes can last for less than a day, or as I have seen, can even last over a year.

"Unhealthy" is just short-cut language. Call it what you will. It DOES happen.
I don't think there is a failure of Typology.
Naomi Quenk describes the symptoms perfectly, all within the realm of Typology.

I didn't say unhealthiness didn't exist (though I'm skeptical when people say that they "turned into XXXX type" because they're unhealthy...I mean, yeah, you may exhibit SOME behaviors that individuals of your shadow type would if they were unhealthy, but you don't really become that type, nor would you ever really be confused for that type), just that it's kind of a meaningless term when it's applied to others. You can feel free to call yourself unhealthy all you want, but when it comes to calling OTHER PEOPLE unhealthy (especially those known only through limited interaction on the internet) it's kind of, well, bullshit.

Whether it's relevant or not to someone's experience, the phenomenon of an "unhealthy state" exists to you at least, doesn't it? You could very well argue that it doesn't, that nobody is truly unhealthy or healthy, but since we're on a site that's loosely tied to the subject of psychology, then I'll assume that you think it does. Or are you just warning against armchair psychology? When is it valid at all to use the label "unhealthy"?

It's funny that you bring up "armchair psychology" in this context. Isn't that just what referring to someone as "unhealthy" is when you're not a psychologist? As for examples of function usage, I don't think we have a very clear set of criteria for determining what is "healthy" behavior and what is not (not least because it's sort of nonsense to think that we can pinpoint specific behaviors as being the result of individual functions anyway.) The result of this intellectually lazy way of labeling behaviors is that people throw the term around willy nilly in attempts to discredit one another or rationalize their types.
 

Thalassa

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Okay, I see both sides of this issue. Yes, people can be psychologically unhealthy. Probably what people mean when they ascribe the word "unhealthy" to functional use is to reference the state of the individual: depressed, angry, controlling, manic, et al. People are often "unhealthy" when they are hurting. One of the things I despise most is when the word "unhealthy" is thrown around like it is an insult - people are unhealthy because they are sick or wounded. People behave in "unhealthy" ways sometimes because they are hurting inside, have "issues" from their past, or might even suffer from mental illness.

ON THE OTHER HAND...is what some people call "unhealthy" just an ethical view?

I mean, take Vladimir Putin for example: is he using Ni/Te/Fi/Se in an "unhealthy" way...or do we in the Western world just disagree with his ethics? (These are the things that keep me awake at night, lol).

I think that might be what the OP is getting at ...these ethical interpretations of other people's functioning. If your ethics clash, it doesn't mean that the other person is necessarily "unhealthy" now, does it? Or doesn't it?

I hear people with Fe talk about "unhealthy Fi" a bunch. Sometimes I wonder if they just mean they don't like our individualized values (or occasionally lack thereof).

It's all very complex, and we're all a bunch of armchair therapists around here (instead of armchair philosophers) so our estimations are bound to be opinionated and not always correct.
 
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It's all very complex, and we're all a bunch of armchair therapists around here (instead of armchair philosophers) so our estimations are bound to be opinionated and not always correct.

Amen! And there's nothing wrong with that IMO. So maybe the solution is for people to be more careful in prefacing their comments with "in my opinion" or "in my experience", to help those sensitive folks feel a little better about it. Hahahaha! :D
 

Orangey

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InvisibleJim, yesss, now you're getting hot! Do unto others!! I want to hear others' opinions; regardless of who you are: the good, the bad and the ugly! From there, I'll analyze and filter the information accordingly: it might be water off a ducks back; it might be the very catalyst for change. How I treat the information, depends on various things; such as, how much I respect you and how useful the information is. Isn't that how most of us deal with our day to day interactions? We dig deeper if we want to know more. Sometimes the information is useful because it triggers new ideas. I love hearing even the novice opinions.

So with that said, it's about putting things in their proper context. An opinion is just an opinion. A novice is just a novice. So when someone uses the term 'unhealthy', I consider the source and see it for what it is. "It's judgmental," as some of you have argued, but that doesn't matter to me. I still want to hear it. I'll decide for myself what to do with it, if anything. :nerd:

Amen! And there's nothing wrong with that IMO. So maybe the solution is for people to be more careful in prefacing their comments with "in my opinion" or "in my experience", to help those sensitive folks feel a little better about it. Hahahaha! :D

You're really working hard to trivialize this topic and close down discussion, aren't you?
 

Orangey

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In my opinion, it is trivial.

Then don't discuss it. Otherwise, you could at least try to say something more than, "it's a word...I don't mind it...so you shouldn't either...nor should you voice your dissatisfaction with it...or talk about it at all."
 

InvisibleJim

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In my opinion, it is trivial.

Your opinion doesn't match your behaviour. It's not unhealthy - it's Ne-Ti one of the flavours of Pe-Ji.

Now it's very important to Pi-Je types. We don't draw all conclusion back to our perspectives and label others as unhealthy as a consequence of our perspective gazing upon them. You can label a behavioural consequence as unhealthy 'this malice is unhealthy', but it's not sensible to label a normal form of cognition as unhealthy simply because you dislike it. 'This Fi is unhealthy because it isn't in your top two functions' - The most common experience I have of discussing INTJ-ENTP relations. Of course this merely comes down to their PoLR. Therefore it's not unhealthy, it is what it is.
 
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Then don't discuss it. Otherwise, you could at least try to say something more than, "it's a word...I don't mind it...so you shouldn't either...nor should you voice your dissatisfaction with it...or talk about it at all."

I said a lot more than that. I spent quality time reading and giving lengthy responses. I prodded for a logical argument that takes into consideration the facts: the denotation of the word "unhealthy", the context of the word, the source of the "judgment", etc. I still struggle to understand some of the responses where the assumptions are emotionally-based and not fact-based. Orobas's response today is a good example of that. Many of her assumptions about functions are not correct; they are not facts. So my conclusion today is summed up nicely by your quote.

Edit: That doesn't mean I didn't want to hear what others had to say. On the contrary, I needed to hear others' opinions in order to draw that conclusion. It also doesn't mean I'm not open to hear what you have to say now. I stated in a previous post earlier today that "I am open". I meant that.
 
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Ginkgo

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MBTI is not an appropriate measurement tool for determining healthiness or unhealthiness.

The terms "healthy" and "unhealthy" are far too broad to be any more useful than a scratch n' sniff sticker. Imagine if you were to walk in to see your primary care physician (or your local witch doctor, for those MBTI gurus out in the boonies), and he told you you were "unhealthy" just because you seemed abnormal. Would you walk out feeling like you were on your way to recovery? No.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the criteria on TypologyCentral.
 
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Ginkgo

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People project to attempt to understand other individuals by applying their own values to those individuals. It's not trolling, it's humanising.

I don't think the terms "healthy" and "unhealthy" are dolled out just because of projection. Values aren't the only element we're dealing with, especially not just personal values.
 

Orangey

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MBTI is not an appropriate measurement tool for determining healthiness or unhealthiness.

The terms "healthy" and "unhealthy" are far too broad to be any more useful than a scratch n' sniff sticker. Imagine if you were to walk in to see your primary care physician (or your local witch doctor, for those MBTI gurus out in the boonies), and he told you you were "unhealthy" just because you seemed abnormal. Would you walk out feeling like you were on your way to recovery? No.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the criteria on TypologyCentral.

Exactly.
 
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