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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (Personally, I would define it differently, and more within the Te framework rather than another framework imposing itself on Te.)
    I wouldn't define anything as unhealthy or healthy Te. It is a process, it is what it does. Is a spanner evil? How about the doorhandle, is it an unhealthy doorhandle?

    Could you explain this in depth and how it would relate to cognition rather than behaviour and choice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Something that Jung spend very little time considering and therefore only looked at cognitive processes from the "healthy" viewpoint, ie people that had no considerable mental issues to distort their preferences.
    oh this couldnt be further from the truth. jung pretty much compared people with problems to healthy people as one part on creating this typology. the book 'psychological types'(where this whole MBTI thing originated) even lists possible neuroses and other really negative traits for each type. for Ni type he says "The form of neurosis is a compulsion neurosis with hypochondriacal symptoms, hypersensitivity to sense organs, and compulsive ties to certain persons or objects". also he says stuff like ENXP types are too P and cant hold their shit together, are unreliable, doesent care much about others etc etc.

    he didnt say those negative traits of ENXP type is unhealthy, he just stated that these are just basic ENXP traits, but ofc not all exhibit all of these traits, but are prone to that sort of stuff more or less. i call this sort of negative traits that are taken into extreme unhealthy traits and i think its fair to do that, because well, they are unhealthy..
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I wouldn't define anything as unhealthy or healthy Te. It is a process, it is what it does. Is a spanner evil? How about the doorhandle, is it an unhealthy doorhandle?
    My bad, let me clarify/correct.

    I'm only attaching it to Te because Te is defining the behavior being used by the healthy or unhealthy motivation. It is not Te in itself that is healthy or unhealthy. IOW, I would be discussing healthy/unhealthy consciousness as expressed through Te (or any other function, for that matter).

    PS. Watch out for those unhealthy door handles. You could get sick if you grab the wrong one.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My bad, let me clarify/correct.

    I'm only attaching it to Te because Te is defining the behavior being used by the healthy or unhealthy motivation. It is not Te in itself that is healthy or unhealthy. IOW, I would be discussing healthy/unhealthy consciousness as expressed through Te (or any other function, for that matter).

    PS. Watch out for those unhealthy door handles. You could get sick if you grab the wrong one.
    Yes, those unhealthy door handles are hideously dangerous; I've been keeping my eyes open for exactly such devilry!

    Te is as good a place to start as any; but what exactly is a healthy/unhealthy consciousness?

    Because the definition would appear to be, by most users, those who simply do not seek to acquiesce to them or to give way and their consciousness. That's not really unhealthy, that's individuality. In juxtapose: 'I dislike what you are saying, or I might disagree with it; thus unhealthy'. If we are defining unhealthy as that then surely they would be close minded and thus unhealthy by definition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Te is as good a place to start as any; but what exactly is a healthy/unhealthy consciousness?
    It might take me time to work out a nuanced description, but at this point we are leaving typology and entering the field of mental health and what is typically seen as productive, efficient, positive, and actualizing, vs unproductive, ineffecient, negative, and degrading.

    obviously there is still disagreement within that line of inquiry about health vs unhealth, but it's like when I brought up morality -- there are some general standards that groups across the board seem to agree upon as general criteria for health.

    Because the definition would appear to be, by most users, those who simply do not seek to acquiesce to them or to give way and their consciousness. That's not really unhealthy, that's individuality.
    Agreed.

    In juxtapose: 'I dislike what you are saying, or I might disagree with it; thus unhealthy'. If we are defining unhealthy as that then surely they would be close minded and thus unhealthy by definition?
    Agreed, again.

    (IOW, the criteria of whether you are healthy or not cannot be directly based on whether or not you agree with me and/or resemble me.)

    Personally, I find that "healthy" people (i.e., open, yet resilient people) are capable of accepting disagreement and even the possibility of being wrong themselves, without it impacting their self-esteem levels. I think any definition of health/unhealth will involve the concept of self-esteem and how people behave in order to preserve and/or defend it. A strong self-esteem can run the boat through a storm without feeling necessarily threatened by it.

    Another part of the definition will involve how the individual approaches "reality," and to what degree they need to hide from, dismiss, or change facts in order to bolster self-esteem. I think that, categorically, healthy people face reality face-first without making excuses, and not reading too much into it in either direction.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    oh this couldnt be further from the truth. jung pretty much compared people with problems to healthy people as one part on creating this typology. the book 'psychological types'(where this whole MBTI thing originated) even lists possible neuroses and other really negative traits for each type. for Ni type he says "The form of neurosis is a compulsion neurosis with hypochondriacal symptoms, hypersensitivity to sense organs, and compulsive ties to certain persons or objects". also he says stuff like ENXP types are too P and cant hold their shit together, are unreliable, doesent care much about others etc etc.

    he didnt say those negative traits of ENXP type is unhealthy, he just stated that these are just basic ENXP traits, but ofc not all exhibit all of these traits, but are prone to that sort of stuff more or less. i call this sort of negative traits that are taken into extreme unhealthy traits and i think its fair to do that, because well, they are unhealthy..
    :rolli: He uses one line on neurosis in each of the definitions of processes. Within a paragraph considering how - in the example of introverted intuition - unconscious extraverted sensation can manifest itself within a person prefering introverted intuition. That has very little to do with unhealthy or healthy introverted intuition. And it proves that he looked into and considered the dark sides of how the processes affected the people using them, not that he focused his attention on it.

    But if you want to nitpick go ahead, I have no interest in doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    :rolli: He uses one line on neurosis in each of the definitions of processes. Within a paragraph considering how - in the example of introverted intuition - unconscious extraverted sensation can manifest itself within a person prefering introverted intuition. That has very little to do with unhealthy or healthy introverted intuition. And it proves that he looked into and considered the dark sides of how the processes affected the people using them, not that he focused his attention on it.
    I just see all that as taking creating a particular instance of health/unhealth for each type: "If subject is <TYPE>, what would health and unhealth look like, based on the definition of that type?" So a TJ's strength of dealing with making closure-oriented judgments in impersonal ways, or establishing "efficient procedures," would be dumped into the hopper to see what health vs unhealth might do to it.

    It says nothing about whether the type itself is unhealthy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    :rolli: He uses one line on neurosis in each of the definitions of processes. Within a paragraph considering how - in the example of introverted intuition - unconscious extraverted sensation can manifest itself within a person prefering introverted intuition. That has very little to do with unhealthy or healthy introverted intuition. And it proves that he looked into and considered the dark sides of how the processes affected the people using them, not that he focused his attention on it.

    But if you want to nitpick go ahead, I have no interest in doing so.
    i never said that functions are unhealthy, no one in my knowledge said that(except jim assumed it for some weird reason). i said that types can have unhealthy traits, those traits can originate from faulty usage(or lack of using) of some function -> its not the function thats unhealthy, its the person using functions in unhealthy way.

    unhealthy person is basically someone using his functions in really unbalanced way. unhealthy traits manifest when those functions are used in unbalanced way on some particular thing.

    this whole unhealthy function thing is something invented by jim or someone else who didnt understand what he is talking about.

    it should be mentioned that weak functions can cause imbalance(that leads to negative traits) quite easily, especially if they are used regularly even tho they are weak
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    (except jim assumed it for some weird reason).
    This man has a curious version of reality; this is the first time I have quoted or responded to his posts in this thread.

    It's not unhealthy; it's just Ti.

    I've told you before; I'm not your mother - go away. Do I need to repeat the same speech?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    This man has a curious version of reality; this is the first time I have quoted or responded to his posts in this thread.

    It's not unhealthy; it's just Ti.

    I've told you before; I'm not your mother - go away. Do I need to repeat the same speech?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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