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  1. #141
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    The healthy/unhealthy distinction is important in online communities to prevent misunderstanding. It helps to remind us (especially newer members) that just because one person of a certain type is particularly unpleasant or disturbed doesn't mean the type as a whole is inherently unpleasant or disturbed.

    I think the closest Jung got to talking about unhealthy types was perhaps this:

    Naturally in saying this I only refer to those cases which occur under normal conditions. Under abnormal conditions, i.e. when there is an extreme and, therefore, abnormal attitude in the mother, the children can also be coerced into a relatively similar attitude; but this entails a violation of their individual disposition, which quite possibly would have assumed another type if no abnormal and disturbing external influence had intervened. As a rule, whenever such a falsification of type takes place as a result of external [p. 416] influence, the individual becomes neurotic later, and a cur can successfully be sought only in a development of that attitude which corresponds with the individual's natural way.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    If you believe there's no such thing as unhealthy, that living in someone's shadow under long-term stress is okay, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because from personal experience, that is no fucking way to live, unless it's a very specific situation that needs handling.
    I understand full what you are saying, but what is 'situationally unhealthy' is quite different from a mind coping with stress in 'healthy' way because the mind works that way. i.e just because you may turn STJ under stress, that's a healthy reaction to a stressful situation for an NFP.

    My point really is bad typology and people applying poor typology + labels to one another. I'm sure you can agree it's more than an academic point from how some people choose to use typology as a weapon to attack others with rather than for information.

  3. #143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Thomas Szasz.
    An interesting guy....

    In 1969, Szasz and the Church of Scientology co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) with the aim of helping to "clean up"[citation needed] the field of human rights abuses. Szasz remains on CCHR's Board of Advisors as Founding Commissioner,[14] and continues to provide content for the CCHR.[15]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #144
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I accept everybodies opinion, but have a very clear set of opinion for my own and it would take you some time to convince of something new. I have never called someone being unhealthy or such in the way he represents the mbti functions, but I know of the problem and I am not completly guilt-free. To me it has occured that especially Fe user have a certain way of etiquette, while especially Fi user try to vote for their individuality. I sometimes have a hard time accepting the wanted uniqueness of Fi user cause it appears to me like they need to stand out of the crowd or have "an extra sausage roasted" like they say in german. On the other hand I am not dumb and want people to live their individuality aswell. It's just complicated when my infp girl comes home and tells me how the others treated her bad and I know in an instant what she did wrong and with what better strategy she could have get rid of the others, by just following some sort of felt Fe etiquette.

    I am learning to cope with that at the moment and I want to build more respect for other opinions. I am tho convinced that tho I may develop tolerance, my opinion will stay the same and if someone calls me dumb or not-open minded because I hate it to stand out of the crowd with my opinion, so be it.
    entropie, you are pretty awesome you know that?

  5. #145
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think they've already described it. It's a highly stressed state for the individual, where they're in their Jungian shadow. An ENFP acting like an STJ outside of particular situations is not an especially happy ENFP.
    I was referring to an actual case I know of where you have what would bluntly be called a spoilt ISFJ. She does not care what you feel, only what she feels and hence is not really like the usual stereotype of worrying what everyone else is thinking etc. It's not a state of stress, just an different state of normal. Not everyone's environment is equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think unhealthy implies a person who is full of negative emotions, or who is in a highly stressed state, or who is forcing themselves to be something they're not. Unhealthy also implies other psychological issues like depression, anxiety, anger, et al.
    Precisely why the term needs defining because I don't associate any of that with unhealthy.

    Btw an ENFP who was told all his youth to "shut up" and basically made to be organised and neat and tidy etc. Now he does strange things like draws patterns painstakingly on a large sheet of paper in pencil, then goes over in pen, then colours or shades it all in also painstakingly (he did one with crosshatching on A1!!!). He also rolls cigarettes and feels compelled to lay them out on a table neatly with the tops and bottoms aligned perfectly. Is this unhealthy?

    Personally I'd label that unhealthy but I wouldn't necessarily call him depressed or unhappy. He can get like that and my suspicion is he'd be happier if he managed to remove the programming he was subjected to but I wouldn't go as far as to lump them all under one title. If the behaviour can make you stressed then surely it is not the same as being stressed and hence displaying the behaviour is it?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #146
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The healthy/unhealthy distinction is important in online communities to prevent misunderstanding. It helps to remind us (especially newer members) that just because one person of a certain type is particularly unpleasant or disturbed doesn't mean the type as a whole is inherently unpleasant or disturbed.
    Would there not be a definition in there referring to unhealthy and one referring to under-developed?

    For example the "robotic" INTP is usually under-developed but I would certainly say that an INTP who has lost touch with reality and cannot grasp common logic as having an unhealthy element to their personality. I mean I guess both are linked but a disturbed person isn't necessarily capable of developing in the usual fashion and hence the term under-developed would be presumptuous and probably wrong but to say they were unhealthy would probably be accurate if a little mean spirited.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #147
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    you should see an entp acting like an isfj. The house has never been so tidy in all your life !
    LOL! Love it!

  8. #148
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I would take exception that description; this is actually a 'healthy' way to cognitively deal with the stressed state! What would be unhealthy would be to continue the same action and expect a different result!
    Do you have any proof that Jung said so?
    I would like to read it for myself.
    In my experience, my Dom and Aux seemed like they "cut off". They were unavailable for me to use.
    I was unable to take in information in my usual way and I was unable to make decisions in my usual way.
    In my opinion, it didn't seem like a "healthy" way to function.
    But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by an expert in the subject.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Do you have any proof that Jung said so?
    I would like to read it for myself.
    In my experience, my Dom and Aux seemed like they "cut off". They were unavailable for me to use.
    I was unable to take in information in my usual way and I was unable to make decisions in my usual way.
    In my opinion, it didn't seem like a "healthy" way to function.
    But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by an expert in the subject.
    It's the only logical interpretation of the theory and more importantly everyone seems to do it, then it's simply not unhealthy - it just is.

  10. #150
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It's the only logical interpretation of the theory and more importantly everyone seems to do it, then it's simply not unhealthy - it just is.
    I disagree, then.
    (Sorry old friend)
    I am in support of Naomi Quenk's explanation of how it works:
    that when a person is stressed out and in their opposite form,
    she describes it as being "beside yourself".
    And the goal is to get back to being yourself... regaining "equilibrium".

    This equilibrium is something Jung theorized on.

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