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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Amen!
    I think there should be a thread debating the use of the word "Amen". All against, say "I".

    I.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Now it's very important to Pi-Je types. We don't draw all conclusion back to our perspectives and label others as unhealthy as a consequence of our perspective gazing upon them. You can label a behavioural consequence as unhealthy 'this malice is unhealthy', but it's not sensible to label a normal form of cognition as unhealthy simply because you dislike it. 'This Fi is unhealthy because it isn't in your top two functions' - The most common experience I have of discussing INTJ-ENTP relations. Of course this merely comes down to their PoLR. Therefore it's not unhealthy, it is what it is.
    Hey listen, I understand and by hearing folks give their skewed opinions about what's healthy or not, it makes for a good argument. Which is why it's cool it does get said, so you get the opportunity to educate the novices. I think instead of feeling annoyed by it, you should take it as an opportunity to educate them. There will always be newbies that don't understand the concepts you understand. The reality is, this thread is eventually going to get lost in the shuffle. You've got to deal with it as it comes, when it's appropriate. There are cases when usage of the word healthy/unhealthy is absolutely appropriate, as I've already discussed; as you've already discussed!

  3. #103
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    From what I've read recently, typology should be related through psychology to the purpose of the psyche and the natural order. Hence a healthy psychology and therefore type would be one which leads to an improved chance of survival (and no we're not talking jungle here but socially as well) and an unhealthy one would put obstacles in the way or somehow inhibit the survival chances. Hence one INFP I know who is pretty much lost in his own imagination is unhealthy because his evaluation of things is hampered by his inability to accept and therefore think about reality as it is rather than as he would prefer it to be. That's not to say he's suffering from some extreme condition (I lack the training necessary to make such an evaluation) but when he's arguing points and requiring others to validate themselves whist simultaneously defending and avoiding any suggestion that he should validate his position I can see that it is hampering his ability to reason.

    As to the incorrect usage of definitions, it is the current trend in culture to overuse and not understand labels. Think the next time you go into a music store what the separate "genres" of music actually mean. Did you just have to check three sections for the new CD you wanted because you're not sure what that particular store would classify them as?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Hey listen, I understand and by hearing folks give their skewed opinions about what's healthy or not, it makes for a good argument. Which is why it's cool it does get said, so you get the opportunity to educate the novices. I think instead of feeling annoyed by it, you should take it as an opportunity to educate them. There will always be newbies that don't understand the concepts you understand. The reality is, this thread is eventually going to get lost in the shuffle. You've got to deal with it as it comes, when it's appropriate. There are cases when usage of the word healthy/unhealthy is absolutely appropriate, as I've already discussed; as you've already discussed!
    1) I'm not - I just don't shower my posts with glitter, it is not my way.
    2) I am - See thread title, eventually when people search for unhealthy or healthy they will see this thread.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    From what I've read recently, typology should be related through psychology to the purpose of the psyche and the natural order. Hence a healthy psychology and therefore type would be one which leads to an improved chance of survival (and no we're not talking jungle here but socially as well)
    Are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    lost in his own imagination is unhealthy because his evaluation of things is hampered by his inability to accept and therefore think about reality as it is rather than as he would prefer it to be.
    Did he tell you that or is that the positive perception you have of your dear friend? Is it possible it's the other way around and you're not accepting reality? Think about it. Serious question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That's not to say he's suffering from some extreme condition (I lack the training necessary to make such an evaluation) but when he's arguing points and requiring others to validate themselves whist simultaneously defending and avoiding any suggestion that he should validate his position I can see that it is hampering his ability to reason.
    How humble of you, "but".

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    As to the incorrect usage of definitions, it is the current trend in culture to overuse and not understand labels. Think the next time you go into a music store what the separate "genres" of music actually mean. Did you just have to check three sections for the new CD you wanted because you're not sure what that particular store would classify them as?
    It's pretty straight forward 'George Strait'-->'Country'. Don't recall having any problems locating the CD I wanted at the music store. Regardless, I agree with what you said about the overuse of labels.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    1) I'm not - I just don't shower my posts with glitter, it is not my way.
    2) I am - See thread title, eventually when people search for unhealthy or healthy they will see this thread.
    Understood!

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    MBTI is not an appropriate measurement tool for determining healthiness or unhealthiness.
    but jungian typology can be used to describe unhealthy behavior, even tho you shouldnt measure unhealthy/healthy with it.

    anyways, saying that a function is unhealthy is bullshit. saying that someone is acting unhealthy in general is ok and explaining the unhealthy behavior with his weird function usage is a good thing, because it gives a perspective to the person so that he can work out the unhealthy behavior. and like i said, you shouldnt say that someone is unhealthy because he doesent use enough Fi, because thats just an opinion whether you should use Fi on that situation. but because its ok to explain unhealthy behavior by lack of some function usage in situations where you need those, its ok to wonder if the functions are used together in unhealthy ways, because thats just pondering while trying to find the solution and make things better for who ever is acting in unhealthy ways.

    anyways nerd girl > intj/estp
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    but jungian typology can be used to describe unhealthy behavior, even tho you shouldnt measure unhealthy/healthy with it.

    anyways, saying that a function is unhealthy is bullshit. saying that someone is acting unhealthy in general is ok and explaining the unhealthy behavior with his weird function usage is a good thing, because it gives a perspective to the person so that he can work out the unhealthy behavior. and like i said, you shouldnt say that someone is unhealthy because he doesent use enough Fi, because thats just an opinion whether you should use Fi on that situation. but because its ok to explain unhealthy behavior by lack of some function usage in situations where you need those, its ok to wonder if the functions are used together in unhealthy ways, because thats just pondering while trying to find the solution and make things better for who ever is acting in unhealthy ways.
    I agree with all of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    anyways nerd girl > intj/estp
    You lost me there. What does "anyways nerd girl > intj/estp" mean?

  8. #108
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Are you serious?
    Quite. There are many reasons we can give to how we act but to believe that we are in some way disconnected from our environment and instincts would be to assume that we are somehow transcending our original existence and the evidence just doesn't hold that up.

    Just out of interest, what would you attribute it to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Did he tell you that or is that the positive perception you have of your dear friend? Is it possible it's the other way around and you're not accepting reality? Think about it. Serious question.
    To assert that I am in some manner projecting my own inadequacies onto the other person in question would be to assert that I am in some way a certain person possessed of a mind which sees black and white. This would be untrue. I only formulated my concept after observing the subject for extended periods of time and considering other's points of view. It's not a hasty label which I would apply to someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    How humble of you, "but".
    Poor sentence formulation. I missed out several lines of thinking while going from thought to word.

    Basically I realised that the description could lead a reader to think the subject a black and white case and obviously a "nut job", I wanted to underline that this was not my opinion but I also wanted to include that I often do not see how serious a condition someone has until it's proven beyond competent argument. Hence I have a friend who I generally regarded as just a bit fickle and a pessimist... then he got put on anti depressants and told me it was a reoccurring affliction. I tend to accept people as they are unless doing so upsets the balance of my life, hence I don't tend to label people as "wrong" or in some way defective unless I have what I think is a large quantity of evidence. Also hence I'm a pushover.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    It's pretty straight forward 'George Strait'-->'Country'. Don't recall having any problems locating the CD I wanted at the music store. Regardless, I agree with what you said about the overuse of labels.
    It would still make more sense to just use an alphabetical order (minus any "the" words at the start of the name for obvious reasons). Lex Parsimoniae.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I think there should be a thread debating the use of the word "Amen". All against, say "I".
    I.
    So be it!

    (= "amen" ... oh dear, what a conundrum)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I said a lot more than that. I spent quality time reading and giving lengthy responses. I prodded for a logical argument that takes into consideration the facts: the denotation of the word "unhealthy", the context of the word, the source of the "judgment", etc. I still struggle to understand some of the responses where the assumptions are emotionally-based and not fact-based. Orobas's response today is a good example of that. Many of her assumptions about functions are not correct; they are not facts. So my conclusion today is summed up nicely by your quote.

    Edit: That doesn't mean I didn't want to hear what others had to say. On the contrary, I needed to hear others' opinions in order to draw that conclusion. It also doesn't mean I'm not open to hear what you have to say now. I stated in a previous post earlier today that "I am open". I meant that.
    My post wasnt emotional (although I admit being confused by your very emotional reply to the original post ). My post did use value based reasoning-Fi. Even an Fe value based argument at one point. Values are not emotions-they are rational, reasoned analytical tools to apply to a topic under discussion, especially one that involves people. (That would be Jungian theory as in Jung. Fact.)

    This topic involves how applying the term "unhealthy" to another's type/function may be invalid. MBTI is prohibited from being used in a manner that determines if one is healthy/unhealthy via the mandates of the organization that distributes it. This is a Fact.

    Any further discussion past the mbti mandates is all opinion, no matter what you quote.

    My descriptions of the judging standards of functions did not include assumptions-rather just a different way of describing projection, a repeated suggestion in the thread, to try and clarify my original point and then extensions of standard MBTI/jungian theory (Facts, not assumptions)

    My citation of my friend isnt an assumption-but her direct statement. I can conceed it may be ancedotal, as are the statements of the several other entps who have noted that INTJ-ENFP relationships appear codependent to them. FiSi will always be a Ti fail, alas.

    One one hand you are seeking Ti terms to frame to the argument, but you refuse to supply your own, instead only insisting that your view is correct. If you really have such a great value stake in being able to call others unhealthy, then it might help to frame the argument yourself with your own definitions and such. If it is just a game of debate and playing devils advocate, then it might again be best to frame the argument yourself and define the limitations and boundaries of the argument. My opinion would be that the more restrictive argument would be irrelevant to reality at that point.

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