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  1. #1
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Default When Introverts Extravert and vice verse.

    I've been thinking slightly about the idea of the introverted function moving along a scale towards the extraverted counterpart.

    For example:

    Ti-----o-----Te
    Fi-----o-----Fe
    Ni-----o-----Ne
    Si-----o-----Se

    Going with this would allow me to assume each person may bear a point on the scale in which the function fluctuates in one's mind state depending on whatever variables it depends on.

    With such, the functions could also fluctuate on a scale with:

    Ti-----o-----Fi
    Si-----o-----Ni
    Se-----o-----Ne
    Te-----o-----Fe

    Therefore allowing one to be able to graph the changes within each set function as well being able to have a middle standard between the types.

    Though back to the common thought of 'going extraverted' or 'going introverted'.
    It is often assumed the, for example, TiNe users will seem more 'ENTP' if they are to become more 'extraverted', as they will adhere more to their second function. Such could be said about the other types also. However, the thought brought up here now would be more towards:

    Would a TiNe who extraverts themselves move towards a TeNi state due to difference in variables and a second mind state?
    The initial thought would adhere to people of a natural mindset as it would be their functions used. TiNe; sure, Ne is there, it's used as a parcel though still in it's general order. The TiNe mindset as a whole rather than the 'Ok im Ti. I'll be using Ne when I feel more extraverted'. It's like more Ne is squeezed out once in a mindset of 'being extraverted'.

    So, I'd like to here other's thoughts upon the 'Ti---o---Te' scale when they become more 'extraverted' or any other functions of course.
    Do you think the scale exists? Possible?

  2. #2
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Default

    The Introvert-Extrovert demarcation and its effects on 'functional preferences' is actually one of the prime criticisms of MBTI.

    Does someone who is borderline E/I magically jump between the extroverted and introverted versions of the functional preferences on whim? It is merely an ideological assumption that (a) the type preferences will hold, or be the individuals will be 'strongest' at those functions and therefore rarely choose the others in particular contexts.

    It is also interesting that many of the descriptions of the individual type preferences, Ni for example are contradictory when used in the context of a complete type.

    I personally think it is a waste of time supposing these metaphysical type preferences. Kerisey showed that they were simply not necessary. Of course others can show that all of these conceptions, including Keirsey are merely forms of stereotyping and make little sense unless we compare to our own innate models of personality based on experience.

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default

    you cant put a scale between introvert and extravert functions. they are totally separate things.. when Ti dom extraverts, it does it with Ne, Se, or Fe, not Te.

    if you want to put some scale between functions you need to do it more like this:

    Ne---0---Si
    Ti---0---Fe
    Ni---0---Se
    Te---0---Fi

    you cant put J and P function on the same scale really because your thoughts doesent really vary between J and P, you measure functions separately by their strengths. also because people dont vary between Ti-Te, but Ti-Fe or Te-Fi, you cant put same J functions with different orientation to same scale. but still i dont see any point to make a scale like this.

    also you should only use one P scale and one J scale per type, because Ti + Ne might look like Te or Fe + Ti might look like Fi and just fuck up the other two scales like this
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Default

    It is often assumed the, for example, TiNe users will seem more 'ENTP' if they are to become more 'extraverted', as they will adhere more to their second function. Such could be said about the other types also. However, the thought brought up here now would be more towards:

    Would a TiNe who extraverts themselves move towards a TeNi state due to difference in variables and a second mind state? The initial thought would adhere to people of a natural mindset as it would be their functions used. TiNe; sure, Ne is there, it's used as a parcel though still in it's general order. The TiNe mindset as a whole rather than the 'Ok im Ti. I'll be using Ne when I feel more extraverted'. It's like more Ne is squeezed out once in a mindset of 'being extraverted'.

    I'll address this example specifically, since I'm one of those cases. In my early life (up to maybe my early 20's), I very much manifested in the world via a Ti framework, and I resembled the cliche INTP. However, due to marriage and other social influences where I had to attempt to engage, I developed some level of comfort and confidence in moving in the world rather than just within my mind, to the point where while I still take a more typical INTP position in how I think/approach serious discussions and where I rejuvenate my energy from, I engage the world via my Ne function (I basically like limitless options, exploring/leapfrogging through data/experiences, draw a lot of comparisons/intuitions to connect things together, etc., rather than the delineation/limiting of options that occurs when INTPs apply Ti toward world engagement/connection). The difference is very notable when I argue with a hardcore Ti individual who has a very strong Ti and a very subservient (if not weak) Ne.

    I can't quite say I've ever developed any sort of persona that resembles ENTJ, except on very rare occasion where I might have wielded authority given me... but it's an alien framework that leaves me uncomfortable and doubtful. In terms of functions, I'm comfortable with Ni but am still developing the ability to work situations in a more typically Te style and find that uncomfortable and unpreferred as well. It's definitely not an organic process.

    So, overall, instead of moving toward TeNi, I've moved strongly toward NeFe in how I engage the world... but that's merely my "exploration" mode; anytime I need to actually assess something and make decisions, the basis is Ti that incorporates Ne data and Fe concerns.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So, overall, instead of moving toward TeNi, I've moved strongly toward NeFe in how I engage the world...
    im pretty sure that applies to everyone, if INTP starts to look more like Te in some situation, thats because he has so strong Ti than when he extraverts, he just kind of shows his strong Ti via his weak Ne and that looks Te to people with not much knowing about MBTI, because its basically T thats he sees and it comes out(is extraverted). but its not the T function thats oriented extraverted(Te), its Ti thoughts that are oriented extraverted via Ne
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #6
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    In eight process theory, Te is also the "backup" of the dominant Ti. So you access it directly then too, or you can look at it as being so strong on the dominant function, you can switch its orientation when needed.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Default

    Actually, I don't think introverts extravert and vice versa at all. Introverts may seem more like extraverts, but they're still internally MOTIVATED. The same holds true for extraverts. I think the reason why there are x S/N T/F J/P in the first place is because all the tests test how social you are, which is usually more a common symptom of your preference rather than a cause. Social introverts and quiet extraverts often mistype or are unable to type, but an Ixxx isn't a quiet version of an Exxx, there are many more differences. Even when I seem like an Introvert, I'm still Ne Dom. In order for me to have balanced Ne and FI, and I don't. Most who believe there are x N/S F/T P/Js have balanced usage of Dom an Aux functions, but a true x N/S F/T P/J would have to have balanced usage of Ter and Inf functions as well, which would be unlikely. So there are few x _ _ _ if any.

    EX: I'm ENFP. Ne Fi Te Si
    INFPs are Fi Ne Si Te
    So in order to xNFP, I would have to have Ne = Fi, Te = Si, which I don't.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    In eight process theory, Te is also the "backup" of the dominant Ti. So you access it directly then too, or you can look at it as being so strong on the dominant function, you can switch its orientation when needed.
    yes, but imo the 8 function theory is bullshit. for example Ne and Si are pretty much Se(if it can be called Se that way) working on unconscious and processing the information before coming to conscious. Se(in its pure form) on the other hand works in the conscious and just takes information as it is. so when this "Se" is perceived unconsciously and is processed by N(connecting the dots on the details that is perceived by unconscious and the connections coming to conscious), it cant be real Se no longed because its not taking info as it is(in objective sense without making any conclusions from it) anymore. same with the Si, Si is also taking in "Se" info to unconscious, but what is perceived is the subjective impressions of this objective info, and because the objective info is perceived by the unconscious and only the subjective info is perceived, the person lives in subjective world and is not perceiving things as they are, but processing that objective information and perceiving the processed info. again taking the essentials of true Se away.

    if you look at the 4 functions of each type only, you wont see Se with Ne or Si on any type, you just see it with Ni because Ni is the only function that kinda allows Se to work in its true form.

    im not saying that 4 function theory is the correct one, im just saying that some functions rule out the others, so 8 function theory isnt possible without changing the definitions to some functions. i think this whole jungian type theory needs some better overall theory than what any of the current ones are.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #9
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well there's different ways of looking at it, and originally there were just four functions, S, N, T, F by themselves, and the dominant orientation setting the "attitude" of the functions. So you can see Ne and Si as sort of "simulating" Se, because you have a sensing function in one function-attitude package, and an external orientation in the other (S[i]+[N]e), but to be proper, it's inaccurate.
    If N is normally extraverted by the ego, then S will tend to be introverted. The attitudes can be swapped if particular shadow complexes manifest, and otherwise, they are in a state called "undifferentiated". The dominant is usually so strong, that the ego can access the opposite orientation of it without it necessarily being a "shadow" manifestation. So if we're both dominant Ti, then we normally reference an internal standard for our logical conclusions, but when having to present this to others, we can also turn to an external standard. Ne and even Fe might help with this, but when we show how our logical conclusions might be more efficient to the situation at hand (which we normally are not focusing on), in order to help sell our point to others, then that can be seen as Te backing up Ti.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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