"Feeling" & "Thinking"

[Seanan]

With "abstraction" it comes right back to why the labels are being viewed as needing change.... PCness and/or connotation, basically, from what I've seen on the boards. I would love to see some jump on it as meaning "absence of mind or preoccupation." #ell they might even refer to "abstract" and "realistic" art in a description of the approach.... the end result being "Ts" aren't realistic. Think not? Of course the same can be done with "holistic" and "linear" in connotation.

 

[Nadir]

If you'd like to change "Intuition" to something else (so they are all still different), go for it.

Done, as seen above... Abstract/Abstraction for the win.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with your description of it --
But the description itself tackles Intuition, as you've said, as a narrowed term. In fact, your description tries to fit the term's mold, rather than the opposite. You mention the word intuition in your pattern-recognition description, and try to fit it in to your thought process, because that's what the label is, and not necessarily because it's truly intuition -- you just think it is. If I asked you to link the "Intuitive" preference with the purported "seeing the big picture" capability you would most likely do the same, and even though there's nothing preventing so-called "Sensors" from seeing the big picture themselves, you'd probably try to explain the "differences" as that's what an imaginary dichotomy implies as existing.

I'm not trying to read your mind, by the way -- we all do these things constantly in our efforts to discuss MBTI. I just think the labels should not limit anyone's ideas in any way, especially when it's astrology with psychology flavor what people are discussing.

 

[Nocapszy]

What say you??

Personal and Impersonal would be better if we're going to get really pissy about it.

There's object oriented thinking and subject oriented thinking. Te and Ti.

That would be confusing.

Also, who ever said that Fs cant be logical and Ts can't be emotional?

 

[Seanan]

Personal and Impersonal would be better if we're going to get really pissy about it.

I don't consider that "pissy" at all... right on in fact. But isn't that still Subjective/Objective?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Hence, once we get the mechanics of labeling out of the way, I return to the point about this all being hopeless...

 

[INTJMom]

Subjective/Objective Perspective

Those are good!
(But people won't know what they mean either.)

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I dig it!

I think of it as:
F: need for harmony
T: need for consistency

 

[Kiddo]

I don't think you can find words that don't have a certain degree of connotation to them.

I certainly wouldn't want people to say I'm subjective when I put so much effort into being objective in my reasoning.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I think you are going down the wrong road there. Thinking and Feeling are indicative of the natural Systematizing and Empathizing parts of the brain. That has nothing to do with "Objectivity" or "Subjectivity". It has to deal with how information is processed in the brain. An example would be a thinking type would process information as words and numbers whereas a feeling type would process information as images and symbols. Everyone has both of those capacities unless they have some sort of disorder (Ex. autistics lack the empathizing capacities), but it really comes down to preference when typing. The difference that people tend to associate with using these different faculties is social interaction where Thinkers tend to value the process (routines, rules, procedures, etc.) behind discussion and Feelers tend to value the experience (connections, bonds, emotions, etc.) of discussion.

The Feeling trait now makes a lot more sense to me. Thanks for that info.

 

[Seanan]

I don't think you can find words that don't have a certain degree of connotation to them.

I certainly wouldn't want people to say I'm subjective when I put so much effort into being objective in my reasoning.

I guess you're and "F"?... it doesn't mean you aren't objective at all but that you consider people, what's good for them/harmony among people, etc as a major part of the situation in your objectivity... very different from "T" that doesn't consider those primarily in initial approach to it.

Example: Someone must be fired. You're going to think of the person and, perhaps, the person's family and, possibly, the effect on other employees. "T" may only look at the employee's production and the effect on the bottom line for the company. That's a lame example but time constraints.

 

[Kiddo]

I guess you're and "F"?... it doesn't mean you aren't objective at all but that you consider people, what's good for them/harmony among people, etc as a major part of the situation in your objectivity... very different from "T" that doesn't consider those primarily in initial approach to it.

I mostly consider what is realistic and practical. I've noticed many a T is more idealistic than F's when it comes to such things as political theory.

And yes, F's do consider people in their calculations. However, that is an important variable. That doesn't make them "subjective".

 

[Seanan]

I mostly consider what is realistic and practical. I've noticed many a T is more idealistic than F's when it comes to such things as political theory.

And yes, F's do consider people in their calculations. However, that is an important variable. That doesn't make them "subjective".

Sorry... I edited.. would you mind reading that and see if it applies? It can appear that way. I would need the situation narrowed.. political theory is a huge area.

 

[Seanan]

I mostly consider what is realistic and practical. I've noticed many a T is more idealistic than F's when it comes to such things as political theory.

And yes, F's do consider people in their calculations. However, that is an important variable. That doesn't make them "subjective".

Okay, I guess you did too.

For clarity, would you tell me what you see "subjective" meaning as it applies to MB?

 

[Kiddo]

When I think of the word "subjective" I think "influenced by personal bias or opinion." The connotation then is that my thinking is distorted by my emotions.

 

[Seanan]

When I think of the word "subjective" I think "influenced by personal bias or opinion." The connotation then is that my thinking is distorted by my emotions.

Yes, that's your connotation... not the MB meaning. This is just one that was quick... there are much better.

(T)hinking vs. (F)eeling. Thinking and Feeling are the rational functions. They are used to make rational decisions concerning the data they received from their perceiving functions, above. Thinking is characterized as preferring to being logical, analytical and thinking in terms of "true or false". Thinking decisions tend to be based on more objective criteria and facts. Feeling, which refers to subjective criteria and values, strives for harmonious relationships and considers the implications for people. Feeling decisions tend to be based on what seems "more good or less bad" according to values.

 

[Seanan]

When I think of the word "subjective" I think "influenced by personal bias or opinion." The connotation then is that my thinking is distorted by my emotions.

"Values" does not mean "bias" although they can be... that is not a determination in MB and it does not mean those "values" haven't been reached at some past point by the use of logic.

 

[Kiddo]

Yes, that's your connotation... not the MB meaning. This is just one that was quick... there are much better.

(T)hinking vs. (F)eeling. Thinking and Feeling are the rational functions. They are used to make rational decisions concerning the data they received from their perceiving functions, above. Thinking is characterized as preferring to being logical, analytical and thinking in terms of "true or false". Thinking decisions tend to be based on more objective criteria and facts. Feeling, which refers to subjective criteria and values, strives for harmonious relationships and considers the implications for people. Feeling decisions tend to be based on what seems "more good or less bad" according to values.

The topic of the thread is connotation of labels. I'm just saying how I perceive "subjective" and "objective".

How bout "spectral" and "finite" in regards to F and T? Spectral as referring to a spectrum and finite as limited or restricted in nature.

 

[Seanan]

The topic of the thread is connotation of labels. I'm just saying how I perceive "subjective" and "objective".

How bout "spectral" and "finite" in regards to F and T? Spectral as referring to a spectrum and finite as limited or restricted in nature.

Well, that works if one see's "Ts" as limited in their thinking... not sure about "spectral" but it does seem to make one approach "more" than the other while they're, actually, equal but different. I don't think subjective/objective does that.

Oooops and, of course, MB doesn't either.

 

[Kiddo]

Well, that works if one see's "Ts" as limited in their thinking... not sure about "spectral" but it does seem to make one approach "more" than the other while they're, actually, equal but different. I don't think subjective/objective does that.

It does since the value is placed on being "objective". In that essence, a T can make it sound like an F's thinking is twisted or bent out of shape because they empathize, whereas the T may argue they themselves are being reasonable and logical.

 

[Seanan]

It does since the value is placed on being "objective". In that essence, a T can make it sound like an F's thinking is twisted or bent out of shape because they empathize, whereas the T may argue they themselves are being reasonable and logical.

IC, we aren't actually discussing the same things. Well, yes, I've seen alot of that BS on this site. Actually, in my personal experience, many attempt to do one of two things: #1 put the NTP, in particular, down or #2 become the same as them via induction... a very curious thing. It is, perhaps, a perspective based on what is noticed or varying threads of interest and discussion. Perhaps trying to come up with labels that aren't so maliably connotative is an attempt to stop that.