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  1. #81
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    bleh, it's impossible to completely separate thinking and feeling anyway.
    Actually, decision makers do it all the time. Read John Dewey's How We Think, the premise that underlies decisions in our culture. My bet his he preferred INTP, dominant Ti. His steps for the process?
    1. Location and definition of a problem through observation (really the Sensing function)
    2. Suggestion of possible solutions, suspending judgment while inference goes on (his Intuitive step)
    3. Determining the implications of each suggested solution (the Thinking function, as he only looks at objective factors)
    4. Further observation and experiment leading to acceptance or rejection of the solution


    Note he leaves out the Feeling function. Isabel Myers, whose mother used Dewey's concepts to home school her, added the Feeling function to this process in her Introduction to Type: "Understand the impact on people."

    A great way to separate T and F is to consider what a decision looks like when either one is ignored...I agree though that it's hard for INFJs to separate the two since they're their second and third functions, both extraverted. For me, I have two advanced degrees in disciplines that require logic and went to heavy science/math public schools, all wonderful venues for developing my Thinking side. But my first reaction is always the subjective side--Thinking comes later in the decision process...

    edcoaching

  2. #82
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Sure F is values. How do you suppose those values are determined though?
    So is T.
    So is S, and N.

    For introverted functions.

    Feeling's values are determined by what emotions are evoked by a given event.



    The confusion in this thread comes from a T who's not thorough enough.
    we fukin won boys

  3. #83
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Feeling's values are determined by what emotions are evoked by a given event.
    This isn't my experience in working with the Feeling function in countless interventions and conflict resolution situations. It's much more about rationally thinking through how others will be affected by possible options. The values often come through conscious choice as well, not emotions. Thinking and Feeling were described by Jung as the rational functions--we have control over them. He felt we had less control over what we perceive, whether through the Sensing or Intuitive functions, and called them the irrational functions.

    edcoaching

  4. #84
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    if you're consciously thinking about something being 'bad', you'll be much more likely to have an emotional reaction than if you think of something as 'false'.

    example: when i solve a hard computer science problem, i figure out a few lines of code that hold 'true' to what my assignment was. but i don't react emotionally until i decide that it's 'good' that i solved the problem.
    Wait...the only reason that it's good is because it was true (meaning it worked).

    Okay, I think something needs to be cleared up here. Either we say that the feeling function has no more to do with emotion than thinking (meaning either that emotion influences both or neither), or we accept that emotion is the main influence of the feeling function and not the thinking function (or it could possibly influence the thinking function only, but I think we've ruled that out). If we accept the former, then it makes sense to say that "F" types are just as naturally capable of making rational decisions as "T" types, because their judging process would not be any more influenced by transient emotions (which are anathema to logic). If we accept the latter, then we have to admit that those who have feeling as a dominant function would be less naturally inclined to reasoning, and would therefore have to work harder at making logical decisions than someone with a dominant T preference.

    Sorry to be annoying, I just don't seem to be able to grasp the subtlety of the difference between T and F.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #85
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Determining the implications of each suggested solution (the Thinking function, as he only looks at objective factors)
    it's impossible to only look at objective factors in practice, which was my point.

    i mean, it's possible to separate them conceptually, but no human actually makes a conscious decision based on purely a T function or purely an F function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wait...the only reason that it's good is because it was true (meaning it worked).
    it's good because it fits a value set. something true could be bad, too, given the value set.

    Okay, I think something needs to be cleared up here. Either we say that the feeling function has no more to do with emotion than thinking (meaning either that emotion influences both or neither), or we accept that emotion is the main influence of the feeling function and not the thinking function (or it could possibly influence the thinking function only, but I think we've ruled that out). If we accept the former, then it makes sense to say that "F" types are just as naturally capable of making rational decisions as "T" types, because their judging process would not be any more influenced by transient emotions (which are anathema to logic). If we accept the latter, then we have to admit that those who have feeling as a dominant function would be less naturally inclined to reasoning, and would therefore have to work harder at making logical decisions than someone with a dominant T preference.
    perceiving functions are how you unconsciously react to data, which would include emotional responses. so actual emotion lies in S and N. S and N also do all of the storage of data. so take INTJs and INFJs -- the stuff stored in their Nis will be different -- the Ni of an INFJ will be more oriented to value judgments. so their unconscious reaction to data (Ni) -- their emotional response, will be different than that of an INTJ.

  6. #86
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    perceiving functions are how you unconsciously react to data, which would include emotional responses. so actual emotion lies in S and N. S and N also do all of the storage of data. so take INTJs and INFJs -- the stuff stored in their Nis will be different -- the Ni of an INFJ will be more oriented to value judgments. so their unconscious reaction to data (Ni) -- their emotional response, will be different than that of an INTJ.
    What does someone's "unconscious reaction to data" have to do with their judging function? Are you saying that Ni will function differently when conjoined with either Te or Fe?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #87
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    This isn't my experience in working with the Feeling function in countless interventions and conflict resolution situations. It's much more about rationally thinking through how others will be affected by possible options. The values often come through conscious choice as well, not emotions. Thinking and Feeling were described by Jung as the rational functions--we have control over them. He felt we had less control over what we perceive, whether through the Sensing or Intuitive functions, and called them the irrational functions.

    edcoaching
    Feeling is rational as in rationale -- the reasoning. You're right in that respect.

    In the same respect, conscious decision making doesn't have to be rational as in logical.
    Until someone can come up with another source for the Feeling functions' values, I fail to see how F does not equal emotional.
    we fukin won boys

  8. #88
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What does someone's "unconscious reaction to data" have to do with their judging function? Are you saying that Ni will function differently when conjoined with either Te or Fe?
    yes, that's what i'm saying.

    Ni is a perceiving function that unconsciously processes data in an abstract way, focused on the "internal standard", which is basically your current state of mind/current goals. (as opposed to Ne, which focuses on data from the external environment without filtering it through goals)

    since introverted perceiving functions are goal oriented, and Fs focus more on value judgments than truth judgments, Ni will act differently with Fe than with Te. the "internal standard" is different.

  9. #89
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Thank you.

    I'm a T and am quite emotional. However, this may have something to do with being a teenager.
    It could also be that your identity hasn't cemented yet, since you're still a teenager. You may not still think you're an INTJ in 10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcea Rosea View Post
    This means that people that use F functions more are not necessarily any more emotional than people who use T functions more. Thinking preference does not mean supreme intelligence or Feeling preference supreme emotions.
    Am I right in thinking this is sort of a veiled lecture directed at thinkers? It's not like feelers are prone to calling other feelers emotional or going on and on about how intelligent thinkers are.
    I don't wanna!

  10. #90
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Fe is much more different than Fi
    so......
    we should consider it on a more specific plane
    the functions

    F and T is too vague
    I N V I C T U S

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