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  1. #141
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    My initial point was to needle logic as a fragile entity.

    The manner in which we perceive - as a telescope versus kaleidoscope - offers fundamental obstacles to our decision-making process. We cannot see all the available options to us at any given time. Education is a brilliant step towards mending this deficiency, but isn't to be trusted as a system of pure objectivity, as it was crafted with the same limitations it seeks to correct.


    Education is learned conventionality - our best minds guessing together. There is nothing wrong with this. Look how far we've gotten.


    Ultimately, perhaps the greatest lesson our perceptions can collectively teach is humility.
    You know, deep down I know that I disagree with you on some point here, but your prose is so nice that it doesn't seem to matter at the moment .
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #142
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know, deep down I know that I disagree with you on some point here, but your prose is so nice that it doesn't seem to matter at the moment .
    Oh man, that's kind of like a backhanded compliment.

    Orangey's assessment of Night's post:

    Presentation/prose: A+

    Content/meaning: D-
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #143
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay forgive me not reading everything here but I'm more restricted in my internet time these days...

    The way I figure it the difference lies not in objectivity (that's almost always a veil) but where the objectivity is based.

    F is more internal, values held by the person, where as T is more externally objective as in based in things which are commonly observable. Perhaps it could be further refined into observable and some better word than not-observable (the time restraint also stops me spending time on fancy words ).

    Anyhow that's my two pennies for what it's worth.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #144
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I had a while ago addressed the issue of "subjective/objective" and "inward/outward" regarding the functions:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post219268
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  5. #145
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Ratio: a reckoning, account, calculation, computation; that faculty of the mind which forms the basis of computation and calculation, and hence of mental action in general, i. e. judgment, understanding, reason; in rhetoric, a showing cause, argument, reasoning in support of a proposition; in philos. lang., a production of proof, argumentation, reasoning.

    What does it mean to say that Feelers use rational processes to come to rational conclusions if they don't rely on logic? That is, if their thoughts and arguments don't obey the laws of logic, (e.g., if it's possible for their premises to be true, yet their conclusions to be false), to what extent are their thoughts and arguments, (if they present any at all), rational? What authority does such a process posses such that it demands belief on pain of being irrational?
    I'm on the road and really need to pull Jung off my shelf to get the semantics right (since they matter to so many of us )
    edcoaching

  6. #146
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I had a while ago addressed the issue of "subjective/objective" and "inward/outward" regarding the functions:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post219268
    From the INTJs and ENTJs I know of objective isn't the word I'd use
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #147
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know, deep down I know that I disagree with you on some point here, but your prose is so nice that it doesn't seem to matter at the moment .
    The quality of the content matches his writing.

    Logic is built on assumed facts. If we misperceive, any conclusion is flawed.

    It's like winning a race, but only because you went to the wrong track and no one else was there.

    It's happened before.
    we fukin won boys

  8. #148
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    From the INTJs and ENTJs I know of objective isn't the word I'd use
    But I meant it in terms of the functions, not types. Like you said regarding T. The NTJs' Te might be "objective judgment in objective realm" (o/o), but their Ni is "subjective data from subjective source" (U/U)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  9. #149
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    From the INTJs and ENTJs I know of objective isn't the word I'd use
    HA! WELL!

  10. #150
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay forgive me not reading everything here but I'm more restricted in my internet time these days...

    The way I figure it the difference lies not in objectivity (that's almost always a veil) but where the objectivity is based.

    F is more internal, values held by the person, where as T is more externally objective as in based in things which are commonly observable. Perhaps it could be further refined into observable and some better word than not-observable (the time restraint also stops me spending time on fancy words ).

    Anyhow that's my two pennies for what it's worth.
    That's excellent.
    While I didn't read the whole thread either,
    you've made the most sense out of it, for me at least.

    But then one could argue that the T has chosen "externally objective" criteria, and then internalized them, so that the criteria do indeed feel personal to a T but not in an F way.
    I don't think T is as arbitrary as some folks make it out to be.

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