User Tag List

First 41213141516 Last

Results 131 to 140 of 169

  1. #131
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Western what?

    Oh you mean science?
    we fukin won boys

  2. #132
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Western what?

    Oh you mean science?
    I always thought that the western science tradition was more empirical than purely logical.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #133
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Here we go again. By the definition of objective you've mentioned, all extraverted functions are objective, including objective feeling.
    Context is relevant.
    In terms of attention, Fe is objective. In terms of content, it is not.
    Nice try.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #134
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I always thought that the western science tradition was more empirical than purely logical.
    Not really a serious remark, but you're right. We're beginning (thank fucking god) to get out of that trend. Pure logic is kind of a pain in the dick though (for everyone except us NTPs ).

    Modern physics is good fun. Or electronics. Show me a feeling type who fully understands integrated circuitry, and I'll show you a liar.

    Concerning that kind of stuff, logic (T) most certainly does trump... whatever it is your F's are claiming Feeling does.
    we fukin won boys

  5. #135
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Oh, and the Feeling function doesn't rely on logic; it uses other rational processes to discover where logic won't lead to rational conclusions. Our Western cultural bias tends to get us believing that logic always trumps but it isn't so.
    Agreed, with a slight caveat:

    The error in reliability is owed more to instinctual desire to bolster trust within one's community - as a way to establish personal homestead; intermingle resources; collaborate against potential threats...etc.

    If one evolutionarily polishes this desire for a few dozen millenniums, we see evidence baptized in our recent footprints - from government structure; economics; education; international relations - our heavy-browed brothers are everywhere. We depend on institutions to give us a basis from which we can then generate our "individual" thoughts...

    As such, the error is one of instinct, rather than overt practice.

    Logic is simply a mechanical description of pattern. If said pattern follows a falsifiable scheme - voila - an intellectual bylaw is born.

    Logic is therefore a joke whose punchline we've long forgotten...

  6. #136
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Oh, and the Feeling function doesn't rely on logic; it uses other rational processes to discover where logic won't lead to rational conclusions. Our Western cultural bias tends to get us believing that logic always trumps but it isn't so.
    I find it interesting that you use the word rational twice in the post above; for the English word 'rational' is derived from the Latin word 'ratio,' (which is itself another English word with some tangential interest, but I digress). My question is this: can a process be rational if it is not logical?

    Ratio: a reckoning, account, calculation, computation; that faculty of the mind which forms the basis of computation and calculation, and hence of mental action in general, i. e. judgment, understanding, reason; in rhetoric, a showing cause, argument, reasoning in support of a proposition; in philos. lang., a production of proof, argumentation, reasoning.

    What does it mean to say that Feelers use rational processes to come to rational conclusions if they don't rely on logic? That is, if their thoughts and arguments don't obey the laws of logic, (e.g., if it's possible for their premises to be true, yet their conclusions to be false), to what extent are their thoughts and arguments, (if they present any at all), rational? What authority does such a process posses such that it demands belief on pain of being irrational?

    I mean, Joe can say, "I feel that phi is true."

    And Sally can say, "I feel that not-phi is true."

    Of the two above, the rational person ought to believe whom?

    It is also interesting to note that the Romans used 'ratio' to translate the Greek word 'logos', from which English derives its word 'logic.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Agreed, with a slight caveat:

    The error in reliability is owed more to instinctual desire to bolster trust within one's community - as a way to establish personal homestead; intermingle resources; collaborate against potential threats...etc.

    If one evolutionarily polishes this desire for a few dozen millenniums, we see our ancestors baptized in our present footprints - from government structure; economics; education; international relations - our heavy-browed brothers are everywhere. We depend on institutions to give us a basis from which we can then generate our "individual" thoughts...

    As such, the error is one of instinct, rather than overt practice.

    Logic is simply a mechanical description of pattern. If said pattern follows a falsifiable scheme - voila - an intellectual bylaw is born.

    Logic is therefore a joke whose punchline we've long forgotten...
    What error?

    Do you mean that the priority assigned to logic in the West is due to an instinctual desire to bolster trust within the community, and logic appears to facilitate that desire? Do you mean that logic is merely a description of the pattern, (of the ultimate reality?), and not the/a means to discover the pattern?

  7. #137
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,665

    Default

    One thought came into my mind based on this thread.

    Let's say that Feeling functions are not emotion based (but maybe linked to emotions in value level). So, people with F-preference are not any more emotional than people with T-preference. BUT people with F-preference are affected by other people's emotions (they live through somebody else's emotions). So, in this case it would look like the F-preference person who feels what other people are feeling in addition to their own emotions would have more emotions going on than the T-preference person who is not affected by other people's emotions.

    So, is there a connection between empathy and F?

  8. #138
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What error?

    Do you mean that the priority assigned to logic in the West is due to an instinctual desire to bolster trust within the community, and logic appears to facilitate that desire? Do you mean that logic is merely a description of the pattern, (of the ultimate reality?), and not the/a means to discover the pattern?
    Logic is ultimately a series of learned cues designed to stabilize us towards a certain threshold - the specifics of which is relative to the institution one is consigned (academics; politics; theism; etc...)

    As such, the error (or strength...) is in our inherent vulnerability to the system by which we are fed our logic.

    As human thought is only able to concisely interpret pattern against the directives of his education/intuition (not MBTI; more like visceral intelligence); he is unavoidably distanced from the interrelationships that flutter inches (or miles, depending...) from his intellectual fingertips...

    Take our conversation. As we both offer unique insight (funneled extravagantly through subconscious cognitive "filters" (ranging from the simple - how tired/hungry/sick/etc... we are, to the abstract - Aristotelean logic comfort/discomfort; Theistic background; comfort with uncertainty; etc...)), we are each proffering incredible sacrifices to arrive at an approximate accord (comprehension as agree/disagree/uncertain) as a way to increase our individual understanding to achieve an end intimate to our personal desire...

    The dramatics of which make legitimate connection/communication nigh impossible...

    Think of how profound this problem becomes when we use other people's poetry as our braille.

  9. #139
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What does it mean to say that Feelers use rational processes to come to rational conclusions if they don't rely on logic? That is, if their thoughts and arguments don't obey the laws of logic, (e.g., if it's possible for their premises to be true, yet their conclusions to be false), to what extent are their thoughts and arguments, (if they present any at all), rational? What authority does such a process posses such that it demands belief on pain of being irrational?

    I mean, Joe can say, "I feel that phi is true."

    And Sally can say, "I feel that not-phi is true."

    Of the two above, the rational person ought to believe whom?
    If they're saying that the term "rational" encompasses non-logical conclusions/decisions, then I can rationally decide that Sally is correct. Just don't ask me why .

    On a more serious note, I too fail to see how a conclusion/decision can be non-logical and rational at the same time. Perhaps some sort of subjective logic? Oh, and I don't mean "rational" in the Jungian sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Logic is ultimately a series of learned cues designed to stabilize us towards a certain threshold - the specifics of which is relative to the institution one is consigned (academics; politics; theism; etc...)

    As such, the error (or strength...) is in our inherent vulnerability to the system by which we are fed our logic.

    As human thought is only able to concisely interpret pattern against the directives of his education/intuition (not MBTI; more like visceral intelligence); he is unavoidably distanced from the interrelationships that flutter inches (or miles, depending...) from his intellectual fingertips...
    You are saying that logic is a structure that is imposed on our minds through external education? And you believe this to be a limiting structure, in its way?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #140
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You are saying that logic is a structure that is imposed on our minds through external education? And you believe this to be a limiting structure, in its way?
    My initial point was to needle logic as a fragile entity.

    The manner in which we perceive - as a telescope versus kaleidoscope - offers fundamental obstacles to our decision-making process. We cannot see all the available options to us at any given time. Education is a brilliant step towards mending this deficiency, but isn't to be trusted as a system of pure objectivity, as it was crafted with the same limitations it seeks to correct.


    Education is learned conventionality - our best minds guessing together. There is nothing wrong with this. Look how far we've gotten.


    Ultimately, perhaps the greatest lesson our perceptions can collectively teach is humility.

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] Quote Thread: Express your feelings or thoughts with a quote
    By Sparrow in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 412
    Last Post: 12-03-2017, 12:20 AM
  2. Feeling Good and Critical Thinking
    By Mole in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-02-2016, 10:04 PM
  3. [JCF] Is "Feeling" as RATIONAL as "Thinking"?
    By Wonkavision in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 04-03-2012, 02:09 PM
  4. [ISTJ] ISTJs (or all SJs) What do you think of these quotes?
    By 2XtremeENFP in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-26-2010, 09:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO