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How do you sort The Temperaments for your purposes?

King sns

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you say Se and Ne are quite similar, still you cant understand what i see as obvious. like so obvious that if i didnt understand about MBTI that you Se users cant understand me(as Ne user), i would see you as like really fucking retarded, like what you would think about 20 year old who cant count 1+2, even if he has been studying math for several years already.

and icase you dont see my point there, im not calling you Se users stupid, because i do know about MBTI and understand that Ne and Se communicate differently. and im just trying to prove to you that Ne and Se are actually pretty different, even tho they are both oriented extraverted.

you know Ne is about seeing behind the scenes, patterns and all that, Se is just seeing what is. i think thats a HUGE difference, so huge that its pretty damn obvious that there is a distinction between N and S on sorting temperaments

Thank you. You read your facts. You formed opinions about those facts. You have made your opinion clear. Now, dear I'm afraid to say it's time to let someone else have a turn! Class, does anybody else have opinions?
 

Thalassa

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shortnsweet: living proof that ESFPs can be more clever than INTPs.
 

Robopop

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:cry:Boo hoo, INTP said my temperament idea failed!:cry:
 

INTP

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do people trying to come up with these new kinds of temperament sorters actually think that they understand jungian typology better than for example david keirsey?

i think this sounds about right:

Temperament is a configuration of observable personality traits, such as habits of communication, patterns of action, and sets of characteristic attitudes, values, and talents. It also encompasses personal needs, the kinds of contributions that individuals make in the workplace, and the roles they play in society. Dr. David Keirsey has identified mankind's four basic temperaments as the Artisan, the Guardian, the Rational, and the Idealist.

Each temperament has its own unique qualities and shortcomings, strengths and challenges. What accounts for these differences? To use the idea of Temperament most effectively, it is important to understand that the four temperaments are not simply arbitrary collections of characteristics, but spring from an interaction of the two basic dimensions of human behavior: our communication and our action, our words and our deeds, or, simply, what we say and what we do.

Communication: Concrete vs. Abstract

First, people naturally think and talk about what they are interested in, and if you listen carefully to people's conversations, you find two broad but distinct areas of subject matter.

Some people talk primarily about the external, concrete world of everyday reality: facts and figures, work and play, home and family, news, sports and weather -- all the who-what-when-where-and how much's of life.

Other people talk primarily about the internal, abstract world of ideas: theories and conjectures, dreams and philosophies, beliefs and fantasies --all the why's, if's, and what-might-be's of life.

At times, of course, everyone addresses both sorts of topics, but in their daily lives, and for the most part, Concrete people talk about reality, while Abstract people talk about ideas.

Action: Utilitarian vs. Cooperative

Second, at every turn people are trying to accomplish their goals, and if you watch closely how people go about their business, you see that there are two fundamentally opposite types of action.

Some people act primarily in a utilitarian or pragmatic manner, that is, they do what gets results, what achieves their objectives as effectively or efficiently as possible, and only afterwards do they check to see if they are observing the rules or going through proper channels.

Other people act primarily in a cooperative or socially acceptable manner, that is, they try to do the right thing, in keeping with agreed upon social rules, conventions, and codes of conduct, and only later do they concern themselves with the effectiveness of their actions.

These two ways of acting can overlap, certainly, but as they lead their lives, Utilitarian people instinctively, and for the most part, do what works, while Cooperative people do what's right.

The Four Temperaments
As Concrete Cooperators, Guardians speak mostly of their duties and responsibilities, of what they can keep an eye on and take good care of, and they're careful to obey the laws, follow the rules, and respect the rights of others.

As Abstract Cooperators, Idealists speak mostly of what they hope for and imagine might be possible for people, and they want to act in good conscience, always trying to reach their goals without compromising their personal code of ethics.

As Concrete Utilitarians, Artisans speak mostly about what they see right in front of them, about what they can get their hands on, and they will do whatever works, whatever gives them a quick, effective payoff, even if they have to bend the rules.

As Abstract Utilitarians, Rationals speak mostly of what new problems intrigue them and what new solutions they envision, and always pragmatic, they act as efficiently as possible to achieve their objectives, ignoring arbitrary rules and conventions if need be.
 

Andy

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(I'm pulling this from my LJ blog today.) This is a personal preference of course, but for my own purposes/understanding of MBTI, I can better sort the types by these groupings: TP/TJ/FP/FJ.

[FONT=&quot]ESTP Se Ti Fe Ni[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISTP Ti Se Ni Fe[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENTP Ne Ti Fe Si[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INTP Ti Ne Si Fe[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESTJ Te Si Ne Fi[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISTJ Si Te Fi Ne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENTJ Te Ni Se Fi[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INTJ Ni Te Fi Se[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESFP Se Fi Te Ni[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISFP Fi Se Ni Te[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENFP Ne Fi Te Si[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INFP Fi Ne Si Te[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESFJ Fe Si Ne Ti[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISFJ Si Fe Ti Ne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENFJ Fe Ni Se Ti[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se[/FONT]


What about you all? What do you prefer? I know some people have expressed a preference for behavioral groupings IP, IJ, EP, EJ and some people stick with the accepted Archetypes (NF, NT, SJ, SP).

Also, I'd like feedback from others on my set of pairings and how you think it may or may not be functional. :)

That's a very colourful post. Did putting all those colours in take long, oor is there some short cut I'm unaware of?

Anyway, I tend to sort them into EP, EJ, IP and IJ - which is to say extroverted percievers, extroverted judgers, introverted judgers and introverted percievers. This is basically because I feel that Fe has more in common with Te than Fi, as both are orientated to words the needs and opportunities of the out side world. Ji types are value/worth orienated, whether it is technical values or social. Pe types are exploritive, experimental and spontaneous, where as Pi are orientated towards preplaning, reviewing and considering.
 

King sns

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do people trying to come up with these new kinds of temperament sorters actually think that they understand jungian typology better than for example david keirsey?

i think this sounds about right:


No, no one is trying to be smarter than anyone, except for you. Many of us are adults. We want to talk about our thoughts and opinions and freely explore them. Any Ne user should appreciate that. Nobody is threatening your knowledge. Nobody else is trying to say that their opinion is greater than anyone else’s opinion. We’re just trying to talk. We’re not here to watch the “INTP Show.”

Also, there’s a certain etiquette/ technique that’s needed when you’re trying to get a point through to someone else. (Not insulting your audience, for starters.) If you don’t want to use it, then nobody will hear you. If nobody will hear you, then the idea may as well just remain in your head. There are a lot of great examples of users on here who can post a whole lot of useful information without adding a negative, superior, or otherwise connotation to it. (Eric B, for starters.) People read and intelligently respond to their posts for a reason.
 

INTP

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No, no one is trying to be smarter than anyone, except for you. Many of us are adults. We want to talk about our thoughts and opinions and freely explore them. Any Ne user should appreciate that. Nobody is threatening your knowledge. Nobody else is trying to say that their opinion is greater than anyone else’s opinion. We’re just trying to talk. We’re not here to watch the “INTP Show.”

Also, there’s a certain etiquette/ technique that’s needed when you’re trying to get a point through to someone else. (Not insulting your audience, for starters.) If you don’t want to use it, then nobody will hear you. If nobody will hear you, then the idea may as well just remain in your head. There are a lot of great examples of users on here who can post a whole lot of useful information without adding a negative, superior, or otherwise connotation to it. (Eric B, for starters.) People read and intelligently respond to their posts for a reason.

im not trying to display my ideas about this temperament sorter, im trying to display ideas of professionals and explain them a bit. because well there is a reason why these professionals sorted the temperaments in certain way.
and people are making total newbie mistakes when doing this sorting. like for example sorting them based on E. E varies because the strength of E comes from strength of functions and because E-I varies in type like this, some E people might be really close to I, so you cant really sort it with E and I, since it varies. naturally functions like N varies in strength too, but it varies in totally different way, low N doesent mean stronger S, but lower E means higher I. lower F doesent mean lower T and lower J doesent mean stronger P. because N-S, T-F and J-P comes from the functions itself, they are indicator what functions the person uses, not an indicator for how strong these functions are.

when it comes to insults. you dont think things like "Any Ne user should appreciate that" are qualified as insult? when you say something like that, it indicates that you think that my Ne isnt well developed, meaning that im not developed well(in balanced way) mentally. i might be a bit straight forward with my insults, like with with that im with stupid shirt thing, but im just replying on insults with them. when i say something like "your way to sort temperaments is no good" its not an insult to the person, its just criticizing his theory and i do it because it clearly needs to be criticized, since its based on too little knowledge about the subject. and its not that it only goes against my view on the subject, it goes against professionals view about the subject and those professionals clearly know what they are talking about(more so than anyone on this forum). people should learn more about the existing temperament sorters and try to understand reasons behind them before trying to make up their own. making up stuff without knowledge about the subject isnt very smart thing to do.


and if you look at how this started:

well they are normally grouped NT, NF, SJ and SP, because J makes bigger difference to the person on S types than in N types. Se is really different from Si, while Ni and Ne are quite alike, so T/F makes bigger difference on N types.

imo it depends on the context what type grouping you want to use(using 3 letters might work the best in some situation, sometimes only S/N or T/F is enough, sometimes you want to say the whole type), but if talking generally about types, i think its best to use SJ, SP, NT and NF


Right, so it's best 'cause it's best. How did I miss that important bit of reasoning in my calculations?

was i the one who started with this crap or the one who just continued it?

it you think it wasnt me who started this after reading my first post on this topic and the response to it, you are barking at the wrong tree and talking about things you got no idea about, even tho its all right in front of you.
 

Flight

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sj, nf, sp, nt, st. st is one i made up because sensing thinkers are a hell of a lot different than intuitive thinkers but they don't ever get their own category. shit, stepped in the middle of an argument. wanders off.
 

Orangey

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Argumentum ad potentiam! Argumentum ad potentiam!
 

King sns

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sj, nf, sp, nt, st. st is one i made up because sensing thinkers are a hell of a lot different than intuitive thinkers but they don't ever get their own category. shit, stepped in the middle of an argument. wanders off.

No, it's fine, please come back!!! (Still holding knife in the air) We're all safe here I swear!

Argumentum ad potentiam! Argumentum ad potentiam!

Thank God for google.
 

Flight

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300.avatar.rodriguez.michelle.lc.102609.jpg


were those opinions i just heard?
 

iwakar

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Wow, this is the last time I create a thread and don't return for a couple days because I'm too busy. WTF happened???

...Well, the negligence continues because I have to get ready for work and there is a lot of crap stuff to wade through and respond to here. I will be back!

1720-arnoldterminator.jpg


For those who shared their perspective without devolving into a pissing match, I thank you. :)
 

Thalassa

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do people trying to come up with these new kinds of temperament sorters actually think that they understand jungian typology better than for example david keirsey?

i think this sounds about right:

Not all of us agree with David Keirsey, in fact many of us believe he did a disservice to Jung by over-simplifying his work into harmful stereotypes that completely disregard the functions.

Stop trying to sell your opinion as though it were fact.

In fact, your appeals to authority without regards to original thought or questioning seem pretty fucking rigid - yet you're claiming to be such an open minded N.
 

Thalassa

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im not trying to display my ideas about this temperament sorter, im trying to display ideas of professionals and explain them a bit. because well there is a reason why these professionals sorted the temperaments in certain way.
and people are making total newbie mistakes when doing this sorting. like for example sorting them based on E. E varies because the strength of E comes from strength of functions and because E-I varies in type like this, some E people might be really close to I, so you cant really sort it with E and I, since it varies. naturally functions like N varies in strength too, but it varies in totally different way, low N doesent mean stronger S, but lower E means higher I. lower F doesent mean lower T and lower J doesent mean stronger P. because N-S, T-F and J-P comes from the functions itself, they are indicator what functions the person uses, not an indicator for how strong these functions are.

when it comes to insults. you dont think things like "Any Ne user should appreciate that" are qualified as insult? when you say something like that, it indicates that you think that my Ne isnt well developed, meaning that im not developed well(in balanced way) mentally. i might be a bit straight forward with my insults, like with with that im with stupid shirt thing, but im just replying on insults with them. when i say something like "your way to sort temperaments is no good" its not an insult to the person, its just criticizing his theory and i do it because it clearly needs to be criticized, since its based on too little knowledge about the subject. and its not that it only goes against my view on the subject, it goes against professionals view about the subject and those professionals clearly know what they are talking about(more so than anyone on this forum). people should learn more about the existing temperament sorters and try to understand reasons behind them before trying to make up their own. making up stuff without knowledge about the subject isnt very smart thing to do.


and if you look at how this started:






was i the one who started with this crap or the one who just continued it?

it you think it wasnt me who started this after reading my first post on this topic and the response to it, you are barking at the wrong tree and talking about things you got no idea about, even tho its all right in front of you.

Developing some inferior Fe might be a great help to you. In fact, just developing some plain old-fashioned self-awareness would do.
 

Thalassa

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heheh, good ol' function-based bashing

This is the same person who said if he sees an Se user IRL he's going to run, so that he doesn't have to wear a tee shirt that says "I'm With Stupid."

Then he continues on, ranting that people don't know what they're talking about, but expects them to respect his AUTHORITIIII.

It's absurd.
 

INTP

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Not all of us agree with David Keirsey

i understand that, its just that people disagree with his way without understanding the reasons for his way to sort the temperaments.

This is the same person who said if he sees an Se user IRL he's going to run, so that he doesn't have to wear a tee shirt that says "I'm With Stupid."

Then he continues on, ranting that people don't know what they're talking about, but expects them to respect his AUTHORITIIII.

It's absurd.

that running away from them was an obvious joke and i made that shirt comment because he started to fuck with me
 

INTP

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David Keirsey said:
Myers's Four Groups

Crossing paths with Isabel Myers got me in the habit of typewatching
way back in 1956. Myers completed her book The Myers-Briggs Type
Indicator in 1958 and published it in 1962, though Educational Testing
Service had been using her questionnaire, the MBTI, for some years doing
personality research in numerous colleges and high schools around the
country, and this is where I first encountered her work.
I soon found it convenient and useful to partition Myers's sixteen
types into four groups, which she herself suggested in saying that all four
of what she referred to as the "NFs" were alike in many ways and that all
four of the "NTs" were alike in many ways-although what she called the
"STs" seemed to me to have very little in common, just as the "SFs" had
little in common. However, four earlier contributors, Adickes, Spranger,
Kretschmer, and Fromm, each having written of four types of character,
helped me to see that Myers's four "SJs" were very much alike, as were
her four "SPs." Bingo! Typewatching from then on was a lot easier, the
four groups-SPs, SJs, NFs, and NTs-being light years apart in their
attitudes and actions. This, then, is what Myers had to say about the four
groups:

The SPs
Myers had SPs probing around their immediate surroundings in order
to detect and exploit any favorable options that came within reach. Having
the freedom to act on the spur of the moment, whenever or wherever an
opportunity arises, is very important to SPs. No chance is to be blown, no
opening missed, no angle overlooked-whatever or whoever might turn
out to be exciting, pleasurable, or useful is checked out for advantage.
Though they may differ in their attitude toward tough-minded ness (T) and
friendliness (F) in exploring for options, and though some are socially
expressive (E) and some reserved (I), all of them make sure that what they
do is practical and effective in getting what they want.
Consistent with this view Myers described SPs as "adaptable," "artistic,"
and "athletic"-as very much "aware of reality and never fighting it "-as
"open-minded" and ever "on the lookout for workable compromises"-as
knowing "what's going on around them" and as able "to see the needs of
the moment"-as "storing up useful facts" and having "no use for theories"-
as "easygoing," "tolerant," "unprejudiced," and "persuasive"-as
"gifted with machines and tools"-as acting "with effortless economy"-as
"sensitive to color, line, and texture"-as wanting "first-hand experiences"
and in general "enjoying life." So SPs, as seen by Myers, are very much
like one another and very much different from the other types, the SJs,
NFs, and NTs.

The SJs
Myers had SJs, like SPs, observing their close surroundings with a
keen eye, but for an entirely different reason, namely that of scheduling
their own and others' activities so that needs are met and conduct is kept
within bounds. Thus for SJs, everything should be in its proper place,
everybody should be doing what they're supposed to, everybody should be
getting their just deserts, every action should be closely supervised, all
products thoroughly inspected, all legitimate needs promptly met, all approved
ventures carefully insured. Though SJs might differ in being toughminded
(T) or friendly (F) in observing their schedules, and though they
can be expressive (E) or reserved (I) in social attitude, all of them demand
that ways and means of getting things done are proper and acceptable.
And so Myers described the SJs as "conservative" and "stable"-as
"consistent" and "routinized"-as "sensible," "factual," and "unimpulsive"-
as "patient," "dependable," and "hard-working"-as "detailed,"
"painstaking," "persevering," and "thorough." This too is a clear-cut pattern
of action and attitude, highly unlike that of the SPs, NFs, and NTs.

The NFs
On the introspective side, Myers had NFs as friendly to the core in
dreaming up how to give meaning and wholeness to people's lives. Conflict
in those around them is painful for NFs, something they must deal with in
a very personal way, and so they care deeply about keeping morale high in
their membership groups, and about nurturing the positive self-image of
their loved ones. Indeed, while they might differ from each other on how
important judging schedules (J) or probing for options (P) is in acting on
their friendly feelings, and while their social address can be expressive (E)
or reserved (I), all NFs consider it vitally important to have everyone in
their circle-their family, friends, and colleagues-feeling good about themselves
and getting along with each other.
Thus Myers, an INFP herself, saw her fellow NFs as "humane" and
"sympathetic"-as "enthusiastic" and "religious"-as "creative" and "intuitive"-
and as "insightful" and "subjective." Again this is a distinct picture
of attitude and action, showing NFs to be very much like each other and
greatly different from SPs, SJs, and NTs.

The NTs
Also on the introspective side, Myers had NTs as tough-minded in
figuring out what sort of technology might be useful to solve a given
problem. To this end, NTs require themselves to be persistently and
consistently rational in their actions. Though they may differ in their preference
for judging schedules (J) or probing for options (P) as they tackle
problems, and though they can seem expressive (E) or reserved (I) around
others, all NTs insist that they have a rationale for everything they do, that
whatever they do and say makes sense.
So Myers described the NTs as "analytical" and "systematic"-as "abstract,"
"theoretical," and "intellectual"-as "complex," "competent" and
"inventive"-as "efficient," "exacting" and "independent"-as "logical"
and "technical"-and as "curious," "scientific," and "research-oriented."
Here again is a unique and easily recognizable configuration of character
traits, the NTs a breed apart, starkly different from SPs, SJs, and NFs.
.
 
A

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Here's my sorting based on which part of the brain is more dominant. In my opinion the functional attitudes of these types appear to be the most similar. For example, Ti and Fi are both right-brain functions, so I grouped them together. (source)

Ne, Se = Right Brain (front)
[FONT=&quot]ENTP Ne Ti Fe Si[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ESTP Se Ti Fe Ni[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ESFP Se Fi Te Ni[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENFP Ne Fi Te Si[/FONT]

Ti, Fi = Right Brain (back)
ISTP Ti Se Ni Fe
[FONT=&quot]ISFP Fi Se Ni Te[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INTP Ti Ne Si Fe[/FONT]
INFP Fi Ne Si Te

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Te, Fe = Left Brain (front)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]ESTJ Te Si Ne Fi[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ENTJ Te Ni Se Fi[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ESFJ Fe Si Ne Ti[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ENFJ Fe Ni Se Ti[/FONT]

Si, Ni = Left Brain (back)
ISTJ Si Te Fi Ne
[FONT=&quot]INTJ Ni Te Fi Se[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISFJ Si Fe Ti Ne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

brainregions.gif
 

INTP

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functions doesent correlate with brain regions like that

http://aptinternational.org/assets/jptvol65_1105_apti.pdf

and before you disagree with this study before you red that book first, be sure you read this part "Unlike much of the past research, which only examined changes in alpha bandwidth activity, we found differences in the beta 2 and beta 3 bandwidths as well."

there has been alot of brain region to function maps like that, i have seen at least 3 ones that suggest functions to locate in different areas.
 
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