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  1. #81
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    you say Se and Ne are quite similar, still you cant understand what i see as obvious. like so obvious that if i didnt understand about MBTI that you Se users cant understand me(as Ne user), i would see you as like really fucking retarded, like what you would think about 20 year old who cant count 1+2, even if he has been studying math for several years already.

    and icase you dont see my point there, im not calling you Se users stupid, because i do know about MBTI and understand that Ne and Se communicate differently. and im just trying to prove to you that Ne and Se are actually pretty different, even tho they are both oriented extraverted.

    you know Ne is about seeing behind the scenes, patterns and all that, Se is just seeing what is. i think thats a HUGE difference, so huge that its pretty damn obvious that there is a distinction between N and S on sorting temperaments
    Thank you. You read your facts. You formed opinions about those facts. You have made your opinion clear. Now, dear I'm afraid to say it's time to let someone else have a turn! Class, does anybody else have opinions?
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  2. #82
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    shortnsweet: living proof that ESFPs can be more clever than INTPs.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Boo hoo, INTP said my temperament idea failed!
    Reserved Calm Unstructured Egocentric Inquisitive Clown

    Johari Nohari

  4. #84
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    do people trying to come up with these new kinds of temperament sorters actually think that they understand jungian typology better than for example david keirsey?

    i think this sounds about right:

    Temperament is a configuration of observable personality traits, such as habits of communication, patterns of action, and sets of characteristic attitudes, values, and talents. It also encompasses personal needs, the kinds of contributions that individuals make in the workplace, and the roles they play in society. Dr. David Keirsey has identified mankind's four basic temperaments as the Artisan, the Guardian, the Rational, and the Idealist.

    Each temperament has its own unique qualities and shortcomings, strengths and challenges. What accounts for these differences? To use the idea of Temperament most effectively, it is important to understand that the four temperaments are not simply arbitrary collections of characteristics, but spring from an interaction of the two basic dimensions of human behavior: our communication and our action, our words and our deeds, or, simply, what we say and what we do.

    Communication: Concrete vs. Abstract

    First, people naturally think and talk about what they are interested in, and if you listen carefully to people's conversations, you find two broad but distinct areas of subject matter.

    Some people talk primarily about the external, concrete world of everyday reality: facts and figures, work and play, home and family, news, sports and weather -- all the who-what-when-where-and how much's of life.

    Other people talk primarily about the internal, abstract world of ideas: theories and conjectures, dreams and philosophies, beliefs and fantasies --all the why's, if's, and what-might-be's of life.

    At times, of course, everyone addresses both sorts of topics, but in their daily lives, and for the most part, Concrete people talk about reality, while Abstract people talk about ideas.

    Action: Utilitarian vs. Cooperative

    Second, at every turn people are trying to accomplish their goals, and if you watch closely how people go about their business, you see that there are two fundamentally opposite types of action.

    Some people act primarily in a utilitarian or pragmatic manner, that is, they do what gets results, what achieves their objectives as effectively or efficiently as possible, and only afterwards do they check to see if they are observing the rules or going through proper channels.

    Other people act primarily in a cooperative or socially acceptable manner, that is, they try to do the right thing, in keeping with agreed upon social rules, conventions, and codes of conduct, and only later do they concern themselves with the effectiveness of their actions.

    These two ways of acting can overlap, certainly, but as they lead their lives, Utilitarian people instinctively, and for the most part, do what works, while Cooperative people do what's right.

    The Four Temperaments
    As Concrete Cooperators, Guardians speak mostly of their duties and responsibilities, of what they can keep an eye on and take good care of, and they're careful to obey the laws, follow the rules, and respect the rights of others.

    As Abstract Cooperators, Idealists speak mostly of what they hope for and imagine might be possible for people, and they want to act in good conscience, always trying to reach their goals without compromising their personal code of ethics.

    As Concrete Utilitarians, Artisans speak mostly about what they see right in front of them, about what they can get their hands on, and they will do whatever works, whatever gives them a quick, effective payoff, even if they have to bend the rules.

    As Abstract Utilitarians, Rationals speak mostly of what new problems intrigue them and what new solutions they envision, and always pragmatic, they act as efficiently as possible to achieve their objectives, ignoring arbitrary rules and conventions if need be.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #85
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    (I'm pulling this from my LJ blog today.) This is a personal preference of course, but for my own purposes/understanding of MBTI, I can better sort the types by these groupings: TP/TJ/FP/FJ.

    ESTP Se Ti Fe Ni
    ISTP Ti Se Ni Fe
    ENTP Ne Ti Fe Si
    INTP Ti Ne Si Fe

    ESTJ Te Si Ne Fi
    ISTJ Si Te Fi Ne
    ENTJ Te Ni Se Fi
    INTJ Ni Te Fi Se

    ESFP Se Fi Te Ni
    ISFP Fi Se Ni Te
    ENFP Ne Fi Te Si
    INFP Fi Ne Si Te

    ESFJ Fe Si Ne Ti
    ISFJ Si Fe Ti Ne
    ENFJ Fe Ni Se Ti
    INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se


    What about you all? What do you prefer? I know some people have expressed a preference for behavioral groupings IP, IJ, EP, EJ and some people stick with the accepted Archetypes (NF, NT, SJ, SP).

    Also, I'd like feedback from others on my set of pairings and how you think it may or may not be functional.
    That's a very colourful post. Did putting all those colours in take long, oor is there some short cut I'm unaware of?

    Anyway, I tend to sort them into EP, EJ, IP and IJ - which is to say extroverted percievers, extroverted judgers, introverted judgers and introverted percievers. This is basically because I feel that Fe has more in common with Te than Fi, as both are orientated to words the needs and opportunities of the out side world. Ji types are value/worth orienated, whether it is technical values or social. Pe types are exploritive, experimental and spontaneous, where as Pi are orientated towards preplaning, reviewing and considering.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  6. #86
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    do people trying to come up with these new kinds of temperament sorters actually think that they understand jungian typology better than for example david keirsey?

    i think this sounds about right:

    No, no one is trying to be smarter than anyone, except for you. Many of us are adults. We want to talk about our thoughts and opinions and freely explore them. Any Ne user should appreciate that. Nobody is threatening your knowledge. Nobody else is trying to say that their opinion is greater than anyone else’s opinion. We’re just trying to talk. We’re not here to watch the “INTP Show.”

    Also, there’s a certain etiquette/ technique that’s needed when you’re trying to get a point through to someone else. (Not insulting your audience, for starters.) If you don’t want to use it, then nobody will hear you. If nobody will hear you, then the idea may as well just remain in your head. There are a lot of great examples of users on here who can post a whole lot of useful information without adding a negative, superior, or otherwise connotation to it. (Eric B, for starters.) People read and intelligently respond to their posts for a reason.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  7. #87
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    No, no one is trying to be smarter than anyone, except for you. Many of us are adults. We want to talk about our thoughts and opinions and freely explore them. Any Ne user should appreciate that. Nobody is threatening your knowledge. Nobody else is trying to say that their opinion is greater than anyone else’s opinion. We’re just trying to talk. We’re not here to watch the “INTP Show.”

    Also, there’s a certain etiquette/ technique that’s needed when you’re trying to get a point through to someone else. (Not insulting your audience, for starters.) If you don’t want to use it, then nobody will hear you. If nobody will hear you, then the idea may as well just remain in your head. There are a lot of great examples of users on here who can post a whole lot of useful information without adding a negative, superior, or otherwise connotation to it. (Eric B, for starters.) People read and intelligently respond to their posts for a reason.
    im not trying to display my ideas about this temperament sorter, im trying to display ideas of professionals and explain them a bit. because well there is a reason why these professionals sorted the temperaments in certain way.
    and people are making total newbie mistakes when doing this sorting. like for example sorting them based on E. E varies because the strength of E comes from strength of functions and because E-I varies in type like this, some E people might be really close to I, so you cant really sort it with E and I, since it varies. naturally functions like N varies in strength too, but it varies in totally different way, low N doesent mean stronger S, but lower E means higher I. lower F doesent mean lower T and lower J doesent mean stronger P. because N-S, T-F and J-P comes from the functions itself, they are indicator what functions the person uses, not an indicator for how strong these functions are.

    when it comes to insults. you dont think things like "Any Ne user should appreciate that" are qualified as insult? when you say something like that, it indicates that you think that my Ne isnt well developed, meaning that im not developed well(in balanced way) mentally. i might be a bit straight forward with my insults, like with with that im with stupid shirt thing, but im just replying on insults with them. when i say something like "your way to sort temperaments is no good" its not an insult to the person, its just criticizing his theory and i do it because it clearly needs to be criticized, since its based on too little knowledge about the subject. and its not that it only goes against my view on the subject, it goes against professionals view about the subject and those professionals clearly know what they are talking about(more so than anyone on this forum). people should learn more about the existing temperament sorters and try to understand reasons behind them before trying to make up their own. making up stuff without knowledge about the subject isnt very smart thing to do.


    and if you look at how this started:

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    well they are normally grouped NT, NF, SJ and SP, because J makes bigger difference to the person on S types than in N types. Se is really different from Si, while Ni and Ne are quite alike, so T/F makes bigger difference on N types.

    imo it depends on the context what type grouping you want to use(using 3 letters might work the best in some situation, sometimes only S/N or T/F is enough, sometimes you want to say the whole type), but if talking generally about types, i think its best to use SJ, SP, NT and NF

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Right, so it's best 'cause it's best. How did I miss that important bit of reasoning in my calculations?
    was i the one who started with this crap or the one who just continued it?

    it you think it wasnt me who started this after reading my first post on this topic and the response to it, you are barking at the wrong tree and talking about things you got no idea about, even tho its all right in front of you.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #88
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    sj, nf, sp, nt, st. st is one i made up because sensing thinkers are a hell of a lot different than intuitive thinkers but they don't ever get their own category. shit, stepped in the middle of an argument. wanders off.

  9. #89
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Argumentum ad potentiam! Argumentum ad potentiam!
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #90
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flight View Post
    sj, nf, sp, nt, st. st is one i made up because sensing thinkers are a hell of a lot different than intuitive thinkers but they don't ever get their own category. shit, stepped in the middle of an argument. wanders off.
    No, it's fine, please come back!!! (Still holding knife in the air) We're all safe here I swear!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Argumentum ad potentiam! Argumentum ad potentiam!
    Thank God for google.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

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