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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    How many relate to the description, regardless of MBTI type? How many MBTI Fi doms don't relate to it? Any similar descriptions? (I recall at least one other description that portrayed Fi like this, but I can't find it)
    I relate heavily to it. This description & Van Der Hoop's (which mostly reiterates Jung) are the descriptions that cemented my type as INFP & not INTP or INFJ.

    I too find the MBTI profiles a bit saccharine & "emotional", but I admit they were good enough to catch my attention & consider INFP as the forerunner for my type.

    I think that the MBTI profiles seek to appeal to how many INFPs see themselves; they feel far more than they appear to, and that is often true of myself. The problem is, other people expect INFPs to appear that way, and then you have them mistyping people or having a distorted view of what Fi is.

    Paging Seymour (next time you login, please find this): did you not once quote a book which had a semi "unflattering" view of Fi, but that would ring as true to most Fi-dom? I want to say it had two authors, if that helps in recalling it....There was a great description of the indirect "influence" a Fi-dom can have over people, which Jung compares to a "spell".

    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    This description is very different from your average MBTI Fi description. It's portrayed as a cold, internally manipulative function rather than a system of values and feelings (or even the values/feelings themselves, as some descriptions allude to).
    Although I don't quite see it this way either. It certainly is portrayed as aloof & indifferent on the exterior. I wouldn't use the word "manipulating" either. I think rather, the thought process seeks to remain detached from external influences (which all the introverted processes do), to keep the feeling "pure" in a sense.

    I agree it is definitely NOT a system of values....but a Fi-dom may create such a system, as a "byproduct" of its thinking style & focus. I know for me, I don't have any set of clearly defined "values" in the way many think Fi operates though. That's too much like rules; too much like Fe. Having a system of personal values does not mean a person uses Fi thinking; but it's common misconception.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #22
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I relate heavily to it. This description & Van Der Hoop's (which mostly reiterates Jung) are the descriptions that cemented my type as INFP & not INTP or INFJ.

    I too find the MBTI profiles a bit saccharine & "emotional", but I admit they were good enough to catch my attention & consider INFP as the forerunner for my type.

    I think that the MBTI profiles seek to appeal to how many INFPs see themselves; they feel far more than they appear to, and that is often true of myself. The problem is, other people expect INFPs to appear that way, and then you have them mistyping people or having a distorted view of what Fi is.
    I agree. Fi is not about fluffy bunnies. It's funny, because in a weird way I think the Fi-dom profiles get nudged towards sounding overly emotionally warm in two ways. First, there's the subjective experience of our emotion, which is often far more intense than how we appear externally. Second, as introverts who don't always emote our internal judgments, we sometimes get projected onto as being "sweet." The truth is more prickly and complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    Paging Seymour (next time you login, please find this): did you not once quote a book which had a semi "unflattering" view of Fi, but that would ring as true to most Fi-dom? I want to say it had two authors, if that helps in recalling it....There was a great description of the indirect "influence" a Fi-dom can have over people, which Jung compares to a "spell".
    Found it, although it leans too much to the positive (a balance between this and Jung's description would be more neutral, I think):

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    There's also an indirect effect that Fi-doms tend to have on groups. There's a passage from Jung's Typology, by Marie-Louise von Franz and James Hillman that, despite being far too positive and affirming, does capture a certain dynamic (non Fi-doms feel free to roll your eyes):

    Quote Originally Posted by p111
    They also generally exert a positive secret influence on their surroundings by setting standards. The others observe them, and though they say nothing, for they are too introverted to express themselves much, they set certain standards. Introverted feeling types, for instance, very often form the ethical backbone of a group: without irritating others by preaching moral or ethical precepts, they themselves have such correct standards of ethical values that they secretly emanate a positive influence on those around them.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Found it, although it leans too much to the positive (a balance between this and Jung's description would be more neutral, I think):
    I don't know why I remembered it as being more negative than that....maybe I was thinking of something else. But thanks for finding it & re-posting it!
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I relate heavily to it. This description & Van Der Hoop's (which mostly reiterates Jung) are the descriptions that cemented my type as INFP & not INTP or INFJ.

    I too find the MBTI profiles a bit saccharine & "emotional", but I admit they were good enough to catch my attention & consider INFP as the forerunner for my type.

    I think that the MBTI profiles seek to appeal to how many INFPs see themselves; they feel far more than they appear to, and that is often true of myself. The problem is, other people expect INFPs to appear that way, and then you have them mistyping people or having a distorted view of what Fi is.

    Paging Seymour (next time you login, please find this): did you not once quote a book which had a semi "unflattering" view of Fi, but that would ring as true to most Fi-dom? I want to say it had two authors, if that helps in recalling it....There was a great description of the indirect "influence" a Fi-dom can have over people, which Jung compares to a "spell".
    It doesn't bother me either if a description of Fi is mildly critical as long as it rings true. There is a common misconception about INFPs I believe, that we can't bear a less than saintly description of Fi. In fact, I protest a great deal more when I'm attacked for something I'm not. I was falsely accused of being a liar and troublemaker (among other things) the other day and I nearly blew my top - however I restricted myself to strong language.

    Anyway I think Jung isn't intending to be negative but very matter-of-fact to remain as unbiased, yet factual as possible. He makes no judgments in his statements, and only explains what it seems like to outsiders.

    I agree it is definitely NOT a system of values....but a Fi-dom may create such a system, as a "byproduct" of its thinking style & focus. I know for me, I don't have any set of clearly defined "values" in the way many think Fi operates though. That's too much like rules; too much like Fe. Having a system of personal values does not mean a person uses Fi thinking; but it's common misconception.
    This is interesting. I sense a larger theory - please, elaborate. How do you see values fitting into Fi?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Though Jung was the one who said Fi types are rational, so it could be perceived as anti-MBTI.
    rational function = could be translated to J function in MBTI, but with bit different definition and isnt completely the same thing. function that is used to make decisions.
    rational type = type that uses rational function as dominant function

    irrational function = function that just perceives things as they seem without judging it, could be translated to MBTI P function, but has bit different definition and isnt completely the same thing
    irrational type = type that uses irrational function as dominant function

    its just a different way of grouping the types, MBTI makes the group based on whether the J function is E or not. nothing anti-MBTI in it imo, because types are still the same, just grouped differently. only part that jung mentioned judging type(as far as i remember) was when talking about extroverted rational type, so you could see it having a link to Je, i think thats where MBTI picked up the J type definition, but extended it to introverted J types also, while jung only spoke it on extroverted J types.

    i think there is positive sides in both ways to group the types. when you look at INTJ for example, they can be really irrational(not just in jungs definition, but in general definition also) at times, much more irrational than for example ISFP would be in same situation. but when you define the J/P based on whether J function is extraverted, the groupings are more similar, like ENTJ is closer to INTJ than INTP, and ENTP is closer to INTP than INTJ when it comes to overall personality because functions used are the same. also one good thing about MBTI way of grouping the types is when the person is close on E-I axis and cant really decide if he is an E or I, but if he is an ENTP for example(and just doesent know it yet), he can still look whether he uses Ne and Ti and identify with NTP, with socionics he could only identify with NT because changing the first letter would also change the last one. and its easier for him to then look at just E-I axis. so its easier for beginners to use this sort of grouping on identifying their type.
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  6. #26
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I agree it is definitely NOT a system of values....but a Fi-dom may create such a system, as a "byproduct" of its thinking style & focus. I know for me, I don't have any set of clearly defined "values" in the way many think Fi operates though. That's too much like rules; too much like Fe. Having a system of personal values does not mean a person uses Fi thinking; but it's common misconception.
    Indeed, none of the functions are quite that clearly defined. Fi is more about the importance placed upon ideas about moral, emotional or social worth, regardless of what form those ideas take.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It doesn't bother me either if a description of Fi is mildly critical as long as it rings true. There is a common misconception about INFPs I believe, that we can't bear a less than saintly description of Fi. In fact, I protest a great deal more when I'm attacked for something I'm not. I was falsely accused of being a liar and troublemaker (among other things) the other day and I nearly blew my top - however I restricted myself to strong language.

    Anyway I think Jung isn't intending to be negative but very matter-of-fact to remain as unbiased, yet factual as possible. He makes no judgments in his statements, and only explains what it seems like to outsiders.
    I relate to it so much that I actually considered that I could be IxFP instead of ENFP after reading it - and I had completely rejected being INFP before that, on the grounds that the descriptions of INFP generally sound too saccharine, and in Keirsey the IxxP interaction style seems too passive.

    I actually had to make a thread about it on another forum, like, "Help I iz confus!!!?"

    But they said, no, you're still ENFP.

    That's how much I appreciate Jung, though. I think his original theories are best.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What I have found that seems to fit best (especially in comparison to the other functions), is from Lenore Thomson's definitions.
    Fi is about a "personal connection" to an evolving pattern. Personal (F) as opposed to impersonal or technical, basically (T), and an evolving pattern basically being a "variable" (as termed for Ti) that an individual picks up and internalizes, rather than an agreed upon (external) set of personal standards (or what I now term "established").
    That is very vague. It describes so much more than Fi.

    The greenlight wiki of Lenore Thomson's description is a typical example of the descriptions that contradict Jung's stuff in a lot of ways. Souls, essences, empathy, relationships, harmony and all else that it adds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    Below might be OOT and unsure whether or not I should add it. Here goes.
    Just to check something:
    Protostar - Fusion ignition - Red Giant/Super giant - Neutron star/Black hole (may become a black hole)
    Fi.


    Care to explain?

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Also, check out this translated version http://forum.socionix.com/topic/2459...post__p__15808
    Thanks, that is a better version really. Reads the same, but is easier on the mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    however from what I can tell some of these xNFPs I mention relate much more to Jung's extroverted feeling description, while relating the most to some general MBTI Fi descriptions.

    I personally find this introverted feeling description to fit me and others I know the most, much better than what I've seen from MBTI Fi descriptions.
    Yes, that is essentially my point. I am very interested in non-Fi doms (MBTI) who relate to this description. I wonder how many there are?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Although I don't quite see it this way either. It certainly is portrayed as aloof & indifferent on the exterior. I wouldn't use the word "manipulating" either. I think rather, the thought process seeks to remain detached from external influences (which all the introverted processes do), to keep the feeling "pure" in a sense.

    I agree it is definitely NOT a system of values....but a Fi-dom may create such a system, as a "byproduct" of its thinking style & focus. I know for me, I don't have any set of clearly defined "values" in the way many think Fi operates though. That's too much like rules; too much like Fe. Having a system of personal values does not mean a person uses Fi thinking; but it's common misconception.
    http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-tempe...d-feeling.html

    If that's the other description, I agree it is very similar. I think it is too specific though, and may alienate those unusual Fi doms (who are bound to be quite common) from recognising their Fi use. That last paragraph is pretty bad too, but cutting it out is easy.

    As for the disagreement on how Fi is portrayed by Jung, I don't think getting into specific adjectives and such is a good idea. It's already a vague function. I meant by cold, that whilst it has intensive feeling (and thus potential for intensive caring and warmth) a large part of its nature is impassionate and unconcerned, and that it can often be uncaring towards people and relationships. By manipulative, I mean it enacts internal changes in pursuit of the ideal image, and will often do this to cause intense feeling. It doesn't do that externally so much, and so can only be seen indirectly by others. I think those two elements are played down or outright ignored by MBTI descriptions.

    As for values. I agree that Fi will generally makes value systems, but so will the other J functions. Fi might focus more intently in that area (though Fe would seem to have equal reason to do so), but it's an essential part to all J functions. I dare say Te would usually make the clearest defined system of values.

  9. #29
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    That is very vague. It describes so much more than Fi.

    The greenlight wiki of Lenore Thomson's description is a typical example of the descriptions that contradict Jung's stuff in a lot of ways. Souls, essences, empathy, relationships, harmony and all else that it adds.
    That was based on the book, not the wiki, which is someone's "exegesis" of the book.
    This definition to me seems to get right to the essence of what the function is.
    The difference between T/F: technical (my term; she calls it "impersonal"), or "personal.
    The difference between introverted and extraverted function: internal or external standard. Or emergent variables versus agreed upon rules.

    Jung did use a lot of words in his descriptions, and that unfortunately seems to cloud the concepts; hence all the different interpretations.
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  10. #30
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Indeed, none of the functions are quite that clearly defined. Fi is more about the importance placed upon ideas about moral, emotional or social worth, regardless of what form those ideas take.
    Yeah, my simplistic view on Fi and other J functions is that they are all black boxes that take in lots of inputs (such as values) and decides the 'best' solution based on a weighting system. Fi gives more weight to the things that you've listed more than the logical ones. And the weightage will be a personal and seemingly arbitrary one. The values themselves are mostly separate from Fi the decision-making process and there's nothing at all that forces Fi to only use 'positive' values. We can be as vindictive as any type if we feel we are wronged

    Going off on a tangent...
    One way of looking at the subjectiveness of Fi is to use the analogy of pain. We all feel pain but we can't know that the level/intensity of pain that one person feels is the same as another person. For example, I find injections a trivial matter but to many it's like facing the Grim Reaper himself. That's one reason I find it hard to explain why/how I'm passionate about something to someone else. Imagine trying to describe what labour pain feels like to a guy...
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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