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  1. #21
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Every character presents a universe, which is our universe:

    Every molecule presents a universe, which is our universe:

    There are better other explanations than mine, but mine is one


    So T wants to reduce things to the tiniest possible pieces, and and F wants to reduce things to smallest meaningful units?

  2. #22
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'm not trying to argue in favor of "pure logic" or anything like that. Nor am I trying to establish T as some sort of "cool, detached, coldhearted businessman" type of function. All this stuff is relative - relative to how others may view it.

    I don't want to go down the road of an argument. I don't even want to defend T. I don't care to. Maybe this helps though - I guess I would say that a hardcore T (someone far from the F border) would be very willing, ready, and able to view this employee as a resource/an asset. He would just be able to easily say, "Dude, you're on the chopping block. Pack your stuff up and I need you out of here in 30 minutes. I'm sorry, but that's the way it has to happen." And he wouldn't lose sleep over it that night. Cuz, in his mind he simply did what had to be done from a financial point of view. He just cut 75k off his payroll and now the company can breathe a little more. It's not about "sound cool and detached" - it's just "this guy is productive, this guy is NOT. The guy who is NOT has to go." If he's using T in it's purest form, it's not even a difficult decision. It's a very straightforward, easy decision to make.
    seams accurate to me, I am very F, I could do the exact same thing, make the same easy decision on this...but id probably be depressed over it for weeks, or even months... id probably use the justification of "well, its one man vs the whole company going under...I did what was best for everyone, if he had just been better at his job this would not be an issue." to cheer myself up a little bit...
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  3. #23
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'm not trying to argue in favor of "pure logic" or anything like that. Nor am I trying to establish T as some sort of "cool, detached, coldhearted businessman" type of function. All this stuff is relative - relative to how others may view it.

    I don't want to go down the road of an argument. I don't even want to defend T. I don't care to. Maybe this helps though - I guess I would say that a hardcore T (someone far from the F border) would be very willing, ready, and able to view this employee as a resource/an asset. He would just be able to easily say, "Dude, you're on the chopping block. Pack your stuff up and I need you out of here in 30 minutes. I'm sorry, but that's the way it has to happen." And he wouldn't lose sleep over it that night. Cuz, in his mind he simply did what had to be done from a financial point of view. He just cut 75k off his payroll and now the company can breathe a little more. It's not about "sound cool and detached" - it's just "this guy is productive, this guy is NOT. The guy who is NOT has to go." If he's using T in it's purest form, it's not even a difficult decision. It's a very straightforward, easy decision to make.
    I'm not trying to pick a fight. I agree with what you said for the most part.
    IMO, value judgments are the baseline of human thinking. In all scenarios that involve humans, logic is a mode of thought that tries to ignore or reduce human concerns in pursuit of a desireable end.
    If a general makes a decision that results in thousands of dead soldiers, this is not logic. It may have been the right thing to do under the circumstances, but it's not logical. The general has subordinated his own valuation of human life to the military value system, which considers soldiers to be expendable at times.
    Logic here is just the tip of a large subconscious iceberg that is made of nothing but values.
    I'm not saying that what is called logic is not necessary or desireable at times, I just want to clarify what it is and is not.
    'Thinking' in the typology, MBTI sense, is a willlingness to weigh human concerns and their relative value, again the desire for a certain outcome.

  4. #24
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post


    So T wants to reduce things to the tiniest possible pieces, and and F wants to reduce things to smallest meaningful units?
    Yes and they definitly have different perceptions and interpretations about how things work. T does organize and thrive for function, while F is about existance and sees its harmony in the disorganisation of things.

    When I have finished the study about my infp and she has divorced me because I studied her, I'll tell more
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  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    Unless im a T in disguise, the Bolded part sounds more like F to me, not wanting to get rid of people, but doing so because you care about everyone who is part of the company, and the company itself, that I think would take a heavier dose of F to care for that many people...hehe...

    I guess the purely logical version would be: If I don't cut costs in the company, then the company will go under, and we'll ALL be unemployed. So, it's not unconcerned with people and their situations (necessarily) - it just realizes that something drastic has to change.
    That actually is T, because, continuing:

    I don't know - I guess in this example of firing somebody, the T in all of us is more concerned with making sure that the company lives to see another day - stop the bleeding and keep the company going at all costs, or else there is no company and we're all unemployed.
    The focus is in the company, as the impersonal object that happens to be providing for the people; rather than on the human factor directly. The human factor is sort of a byproduct of the negative affect of the company going under, which again is the direct focus.
    It's more of the same linear, "if-then" logic. If the company goes under, then we will all suffer.

    The F in all of us is maybe willing to say, "I'd rather stick to my morals and keep my friend, even if it means the company goes under. Screw logic. I'd rather be a true friend."
    That's the direct human factor.

    the crossed out part sounds more like a clearly T boss I had at wal-mart, great guy, great friend, terrible boss ,NOT because he was a T, but because of the way he used that T, people he was friends with got special treatment, because he was lonely, as most people did not understand him, considered him weird, and did not like to hangout with him...so those who did like him, he was apt to give preferential treatment... so the crossed out part, to me personally, just sounds like an unhealthy sad use of F than it does normal F based logic... basically it seems like you are comparing healthy F to unhealthy F usage...or something like that... rather than T and F.
    So that probably is a less mature F of a normally T preferring type, as i was mentioning.

    that's why you can't overgeneralize T/F by behavior all the time. You have to see the context it is done in, and what they generally lean to in their normal state.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  6. #26
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    ah, interesting, well then maybe im a T in disguise then, as "If I don't cut costs in the company, then the company will go under, and we'll ALL be unemployed." is exactly the thought process id use,lol... Id just feel bad for the person I let go...and I think a T if they liked the person would as well most likely.
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  7. #27
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    ah, interesting, well then maybe im a T in disguise then
    Welcome to the darkside. You may enter through the door on the left.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    ah, interesting, well then maybe im a T in disguise then, as "If I don't cut costs in the company, then the company will go under, and we'll ALL be unemployed." is exactly the thought process id use,lol... Id just feel bad for the person I let go...and I think a T if they liked the person would as well most likely.
    I think your ethics and motives have nothing to do with T or F. Both the T/F can come to the conclusion that things are "better for the company" or "better for the people".

    If you care for people and what they are made of, then this doesnt automatically mean you'll use it to do good
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  9. #29
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    A good example that I read about when I first starting learning about MBTI is the following:

    Let's say you own a family business. It's been passed down to you through a previous generation and now you're in charge. The economy goes bad and you are now losing money. Something needs to be done. You come to the conclusion that your only option is to cut your payroll by letting one of your employees go. Here are your choices:

    1. You have a 55 year old employee - who has been a loyal employee for the family business for 25 years. Over those 25 years he has been dedicated, hard working, loyal, and a friend to the family. He is currently paying for his 2 children to go through college. He'll probably retire in the next 5 years, after his kids are out of college. In the last couple years, you have noticed that his work ethic had dropped off a bit. He shows up late and sometimes leaves early. His enthusiasm and productivity are down a bit. You sense that he's just trying to get through the next few years before he decides to retire. But, he's still a good friend of the family and has a lot of knowledge.

    2. You have a 28 year old employee who graduated with a Master's degree from a good school and then went to work for you. He is single and has no kids. He works extremely hard - he's the first one at work in the morning and he's the last one to leave at night. He is ambitious and is extremely productive.

    You have to fire one of them. Which one would you fire?

    The "T" will likely get rid of #1 - he is concerned with efficiency and the "bottom line" - he simply compares the productivity of the 2 individuals and it's easy to see who is more productive. The truth of the matter is plain to see: the older guy is costing the company money. The younger guy is making money for the company. Therefore, the older guy has to go.

    The "F" will likely get rid of #2 - they will reason that the younger guy can easily get a job somewhere else and do well in his career. He has no burdensome financial obligations, no children to feed/put through college, no house payment, etc. Plus, the older guy has been such a loyal and true employee over the years - it wouldn't be fair to just throw him on the street now that he is close to retirement. He was loyal to the company, now the company has an obligation to be loyal to him.
    i like that. i wonder how often it's true.

    i think there ought to be a good blend of both...maybe you can cut costs elsewhere...maybe something could be worked out for old dude to retire early....but if it did come down to those two choices. i would certainly decide to do what i would consider the ''right" thing and keep old dude on.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i like that. i wonder how often it's true.

    i think there ought to be a good blend of both...maybe you can cut costs elsewhere...maybe something could be worked out for old dude to retire early....but if it did come down to those two choices. i would certainly decide to do what i would consider the ''right" thing and keep old dude on.
    The way old dude is working, you'll be bankrupt next month. Game over. Everyone go home. Watch TV. Apply for unemployment.

    But, yeah, ideally, if I had the resources, I'd like to take care of old dude somehow. Maybe give him a severance package - maybe 50-100k to make sure his kids' college was covered and that his next few house payments were covered - a little "bonus" before he gets a swift kick in the rear. It's just not always feasible to do that.

    I think of a new car dealership. Guy A is selling 10 cars a month, Guy B is selling 1 car per month. I don't care how much I like Guy B, he just isn't cutting it. Maybe buy him breakfast or something and then tell him he's free to go home and take a nap.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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