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  1. #31
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    You know, it does seem like this could be so. It seems like people of African-American descent experience stronger pressure for conformity and a lack of lofty expectations or idealistic visions in life. ST consciousness over NF. And I'm not sure, but it seems like brown-haired Caucasians and Asian-Americans are expected to be somewhat more intelligent/articulate than other people. A very slight NT-ish overlay, I guess (although the SJ overlay of society in general is stronger than this one). And it seems like Latino races are expected to be somewhat SF in demeanor.

    Although I think these don't really affect who you really are, it could very well affect how you express yourself.

    Just another thing to consider while deciding your type, I guess... think about exactly how you are mentally, try not to think about how you feel you should be.

  2. #32
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I have wondered a lot about this because I teach mostly black (then hispanic, then white) kids.

    As an exercise of overt stereotyping, I would say that my black boys generally seem to be ESTPs, and my black girls generally seem to be ESFJs*. Obviously I have introverts and intuitives, but I do think that there are some significant cultural features that make typing difficult for me in my classroom. Actually, I find typing generally difficult in the classroom because I only see these kids in that particular context, and it's not enough.

    *These stereotypes are affected by race, I think (the ES part in particular; my black kids DO seem to be "louder" and more outspoken than my white kids which is easy to mistake for extraversion when it's something else--and overall, I find that students seem more "S" to me because a lot of them really haven't quite developed the abstract thinking that adults are expected to have); they are also affected by gender (the T/F and P/J in particular).

    When I've tried to figure out student types before, I have found that it was much easier for me to feel sure about my white kids' types. It kind of reminds me of another thing I once heard--that people GENERALLY find it easier to recognize distinct faces in their own racial group and have more trouble telling the difference between faces outside of their group (though, if a person has spent a great deal of time with an "outside group," he may be just as able to recognize distinct faces in that group as i his own).
    Yes, this is exactly what obscured my type when I first learned about MBTI. It's easier for me to recognize functions as they are stereotypically represented in white people than it is for black people. I have to look very hard and do extensive studying of the black person in question to get their type if something seems a bit "off". I agree, it seems to me like a significant portion of black males conform to either the ESTP or ISTJ type description and most black women conform to SFJ. It took me a long time to type my two INTJ (one male, one female) friends because they are more Fe'd out than me and they're not faking it, they really are. Then I thought they were ISTJ but when I started correlating their behavior to functions in casual situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i don't think type really has anything to do with cultural background. i just think MIStyping in certain directions has to do with cultural background. people WANT to identify themselves with culturally accepted norms.
    Hmmm, I don't know. I think you're underestimating the influence of culture. I think the functions occur outside of, but the form they take looks different depending on your cultural background.

    There is a narrower band of "acceptable" and "normal" behavior in black American culture compared to white American culture. Seriously, in my high school there were no skaters, nerds, emos, punks, preppies, dorks, or whatever crowds there are or they hid themselves extremely well. We had jocks, they're standard everywhere.

  3. #33
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Hmmm, I don't know. I think you're underestimating the influence of culture. I think the functions occur outside of, but the form they take looks different depending on your cultural background.

    There is a narrower band of "acceptable" and "normal" behavior in black American culture compared to white American culture. Seriously, in my high school there were no skaters, nerds, emos, punks, preppies, dorks, or whatever crowds there are or they hid themselves extremely well. We had jocks, they're standard everywhere.
    okay. i'll agree that culture has an effect on which functions people would refine over time. but i think physical brain chemistry probably renders that effect pretty negligible.

    you see plenty of Ns with two SJ parents.

    and i'm not trying to make the claim about observable behavior. i'm more talking about pure cognitive functions. regarding observable behavior, i think SJs, FJs, and FPs would probably have the most behavioral variability across cultures, whereas INTPs (for example) would probably look much more similar.

    but i'm not sure that there would be statistically significant differences in MBTI types across cultures (i'm talking TRUE types, which are impossible to varify). but then again, i really have no evidence for my claim, other then a hunch about the brain's relation to type.

    i do think it's defendable, though, to claim that cultural background affects MIStyping much more than actual type. but, yeah, i don't really have the information to make any conclusive judgments about affects of culture on actual type. and no one really does.

  4. #34
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    the groups at my high school were jocks, farmers and other... it was very easy to be all 3, probably 80% of people there did!

    conforming was important there- even idea wise- I got called a communist for most of my high school career for a comment on taxes

    rural areas are pretty conformist- I'm one of 4 from my graduating class who will be graduating from college (out of 120 people)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #35
    Senior Member surgery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The extreme, self-involved, blogging introversion you see is the liberty of those whose financial situation is secure. It's difficult to sit in front of a computer for hours feeling sorry for yourself when you have to go out there and ensure that you're going to have money for food to eat that week.
    I'm biracial (black and white), and have grown up in a predominately white, upper-middle class environment; basically, I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. While I suppose that any INFP would be somewhat as internal and dreamy as me, there would be significant differences in the degree of those characteristics in, let's say, a from a single, black, INFP mother in Detroit, or a heterosexual male from Wheeling, WV. Their lifestyles would simply not permit them to lead the same impractical, "airy" life that I do.

    Anyway, while I, of course, have no knowledge of proteanmix's personal history, I'll say that perhaps you do not identify the stereotypical iNtuitive, because, like Mycroft so elegantly said, you have to focus more on reality in order to survive.

    Although I think these don't really affect who you really are, it could very well affect how you express yourself.
    Oui.

    Especially mafiosi. The mafia is what most would dub a Sensing culture, but I think Intuiters could easily slip in there.
    I think an NT would be especially welcomed in that society, if he were able to find logical fallicies in crime plans, and were able to come up with innovative ways to commit crimes.
    "Why had he never appreciated what a miracle he was, brain and nerve and bounding heart?"

  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What do people think?
    by the way, i never saw any Si in you. i always thought you were ENFJ, maybe with developed Se or something. you seem to be very focused on figuring out other people's assumption sets -- getting into their heads.

    many people think of N as NP...

  7. #37
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    And yeh, I'm not flighty or head in teh clouds.. some people wear their introversion/aversion to socialising/lack of social skills as a badge.. look how INxx I am! No one "gets" me! I'm unique and elusive! Rgh.
    I could not figure out who said this in the OP.

    When INxx say these things it is because they are looking for a type of understanding and fitting in that they don't find too often out in the world. On boards like this it can be a priceless experience to express these feelings and have someone else actually say they can relate. So much nicer than being told you are "flighty and head in the clouds" or "too quiet" in a negative fashion as often can be the case in offline life.

    Certainly IN can be made to feel different in their lives. I don't think they ---or IS----- are necessarily wearing their *introversion* like a badge, it is what they are. This is such a strange statement: "wearing their introversion like a badge." I don't even understand what would be wrong with a person chosing to do such a thing. Should they instead be ashamed of being introverted? Just because you feel you "worked" to become more socially adept has nothing to do with the difficulties a introvert will have with social interactions and balance, because you gain energy as extrovert from being social, you won't have the same outlook on it.

    If one works in a certain field or comes from a family populated with many IN, you may not understand how rare it can be for some to run into other IN in their lives and how different life can make them feel, for better or worse different. So should the IN try and deny this feeling of difference?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The extreme, self-involved, blogging introversion you see is the liberty of those whose financial situation is secure. It's difficult to sit in front of a computer for hours feeling sorry for yourself when you have to go out there and ensure that you're going to have money for food to eat that week.
    I think a dreamer will dream no matter where they are, even with their hands stuck in dishwater all day in a steaming kitchen, they will still have a dreamy inner life. They would still have the kinds of thoughts that people put into blogs just not the time to blog them. There will be some time of day where they do their introspecting, or else they would go mad, driving, taking the bus or walking to work even, or as they lay down to sleep. They would still introspect and daydream. One has only to read diaries or books by those who have been in such positions in the past. Even people who could not write put their introspections into folk tales and song.

    The theory about cultural pressues in this thread is intriguing, but it gained nothing by the rather negative tinged comments directed at introversion and N... jmo.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Although I think these don't really affect who you really are, it could very well affect how you express yourself.
    I agree with this. Also within that culture, the person would know they were different no matter how hard they tried to conform. If N traits were seem as "head in the clouds" by their culture, then within that culture certainly they would be aware of not fitting into the cultural stereotype and lo...they might come here and post some self pity badge post about how unique they were!


    It was always my exprience with blacks that on the whole they had more understanding of people who were a bit "different" and who looked at things differently. This was true more in Texas than the West coast or northern midwest however, now that I think about it.

  9. #39
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I think a dreamer will dream no matter where they are, even with their hands stuck in dishwater all day in a steaming kitchen, they will still have a dreamy inner life. They would still have the kinds of thoughts that people put into blogs just not the time to blog them.
    I understand what you mean and largely agree, but I think that this sentiment assumes a "disconnect" between the external world and the contents of the internal "dreaming" which doesn't exist. Yes, an INFP in any situation will be a dreamer by nature, but the contents of those flights of fancy will be informed and shaped by the external reality of that person's life.

    Also, the degree to which an introvert has been "socialized" (to borrow a term I saw elsewhere on this board and quite liked) has a dramatic effect on his personality and thought processes. Introverts tend to like to believe that the external world has no influence on our "true selves", but that's simply untrue.

  10. #40
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Do you think that organized crime types would be Js, perhaps? If I were an evil ESFJ (what do you mean "if?" - brain ed.), I think that mob boss would be a good fit, actually.
    In MBTT, I'd say most mob bosses were typically ESTP. I haven't read about enough SJs thus far to say that they were a possibility, and because of their mindframe, it sounds amusing, even when you take into account the honourable old ways of the mafia, which never actually existed. Before I started reading, I thought there was an honourable mafia, but their whole existence is based on disrespect and dishonour of everyone outside their own family. Maybe there are some ESTJs though, and hence some ESFJs. But most American mafiosi I'd call ESTPs (perhaps ESFPs). You might get the odd ENTJ or INTJ thrown in there too.

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