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  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    No problem with that mercury... I didn't really mean attuned to the environment in that sense, as you can see niffer and I were trying to describe something that's pretty indescribable, but which if you experience it and see someone else trying to describe it then you'd know what they mean. My words did poor justice to the 'atmosphere' we were trying to describe, so it's no wonder you got me wrong. Mea culpa, and all that.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    No problem with that mercury... I didn't really mean attuned to the environment in that sense, as you can see niffer and I were trying to describe something that's pretty indescribable, but which if you experience it and see someone else trying to describe it then you'd know what they mean. My words did poor justice to the 'atmosphere' we were trying to describe, so it's no wonder you got me wrong. Mea culpa, and all that.
    No worries. I am little quick on the draw to defend Western culture these days, because I have noticed a trend amongst people I know (generally, amongst the richest and most spoiled) to slag their own background, which makes me angry. Not that you did that in any way. I just get sick of people who always look at the negative side of things, and don't realize how lucky they are (they tend to be fairly ignorant of the other cultures they lionize, as well).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #23
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No worries. I am little quick on the draw to defend Western culture these days, because I have noticed a trend amongst people I know (generally, amongst the richest and most spoiled) to slag their own background, which makes me angry. Not that you did that in any way. I just get sick of people who always look at the negative side of things, and don't realize how lucky they are (they tend to be fairly ignorant of the other cultures they lionize, as well).
    Believe me, it was something similar in my thought process that contributed to my parting ways with Islam years ago... I never realized how much I love Europe and how European I am (and proud to be) until I began to spend extended periods of time among non-Europeans, hearing my culture, my land and my people (which I never thought of as such before) slagged and slandered constantly. I found myself defending a culture I'd previously not valued that much.

    However, to love and appreicate what one has doesn't mean blinding oneself to its faults and flaws, and it's still a good thing to try to pool together the best of whatever one encounters to help overcome the weaknesses in oneself that are due to the limited horizons presented by staying within the boundaries of one culture.

    I even bought a .eu domain name
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #24
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Believe me, it was something similar in my thought process that contributed to my parting ways with Islam years ago... I never realized how much I love Europe and how European I am (and proud to be) until I began to spend extended periods of time among non-Europeans, hearing my culture, my land and my people (which I never thought of as such before) slagged and slandered constantly. I found myself defending a culture I'd previously not valued that much.

    However, to love and appreicate what one has doesn't mean blinding oneself to its faults and flaws, and it's still a good thing to try to pool together the best of whatever one encounters to help overcome the weaknesses in oneself that are due to the limited horizons presented by staying within the boundaries of one culture.

    I even bought a .eu domain name
    And (outside of Paris, where the stereotypes proved unfortunately true) I found the denizens of Europe to be friendly and delightful people, who were genuinely interested in the United States once we got to talking. Obviously, being an English speaker (with decent Spanish), I found it easier to communicate in England, Wales, and Ireland, but Central France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, and Germany were all fine. Good times. All of my sober memories are pleasant.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

    What do people think?
    I think it's quite evident that:

    A.) different social groups have different unspoken ideals for behavior
    B.) people, partially on a conscious level and partially on an unconscious level, incorporate these ideals into their sense of identity and respond accordingly when taking things like MBTI, skewing the results.

    To address what you mentioned about black introverts, my thoughts are such: in America, as a result of historical factors, there is still an unfortunate correlation between being a minority and being on a lower monetary rung. This is slowly correcting itself with time, but the unfortunate correlation continues to exist.

    The extreme, self-involved, blogging introversion you see is the liberty of those whose financial situation is secure. It's difficult to sit in front of a computer for hours feeling sorry for yourself when you have to go out there and ensure that you're going to have money for food to eat that week.

  6. #26
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    Keen insight, mycroft..

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    What you just said doesn't contradict my point, in fact rather demonstrates it. It's not because the Irish are inherently 'mouthy' or 'outspoken' that this Irish person is considered to be so, but because the Irish ways of presenting themselves that come across as normal in their country are ways that are remarkable and different in America.
    ....

    I've seen some East Indian movies where I wondered about that... thanks for enlightening me.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Hm... As someone who is half Asian and half European, but one that lives in a predominantly Asian area...I find that the behaviour of most westerners really stands out. It seems really rude/coarse somehow, as if they see the world in tunnel vision, even though they don't mean it to be. Asian people are reading visual cues 24/7, and seeing all things in a room as part of a room, for example, while the typical Caucasian would just see things as individual objects, just as they strongly feel that they themselves are. Regardless of type. They just seem to be more separate from the rest of the world, somehow. Hard to describe.
    I do think I understand though. Perhaps its because I've been into Eastern philosophies so long... meditation, etc. and, in my artwork, I do, at time, seek to become the object of interest... not sure. But, if I do, I think Americans, in particular, have a hard time congealing or harmonizing with the whole (environment) because we are such a diverse culture. I give a hypothetical example... I visit East Indian friends where sitting on the floor is routine and there is little familiar furniture... proper usage might even be questionable... and family members are heard conversing in their "native" foreign-sounding tongue. I, then, shortly after, journey to another friend's home containing African motif. From there we all visits friends who's home is Spanish style.... where, again, the "native" tongue is being used. That's alot of changes to go through if one even attempts to meld with the environment. So, yes, we're insulated... its a form of protection. We would be living in culture shock every day if we didn't stay that way.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

    What do people think?
    I have wondered a lot about this because I teach mostly black (then hispanic, then white) kids.

    As an exercise of overt stereotyping, I would say that my black boys generally seem to be ESTPs, and my black girls generally seem to be ESFJs*. Obviously I have introverts and intuitives, but I do think that there are some significant cultural features that make typing difficult for me in my classroom. Actually, I find typing generally difficult in the classroom because I only see these kids in that particular context, and it's not enough.

    *These stereotypes are affected by race, I think (the ES part in particular; my black kids DO seem to be "louder" and more outspoken than my white kids which is easy to mistake for extraversion when it's something else--and overall, I find that students seem more "S" to me because a lot of them really haven't quite developed the abstract thinking that adults are expected to have); they are also affected by gender (the T/F and P/J in particular).

    When I've tried to figure out student types before, I have found that it was much easier for me to feel sure about my white kids' types. It kind of reminds me of another thing I once heard--that people GENERALLY find it easier to recognize distinct faces in their own racial group and have more trouble telling the difference between faces outside of their group (though, if a person has spent a great deal of time with an "outside group," he may be just as able to recognize distinct faces in that group as i his own).
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #30
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    i don't think type really has anything to do with cultural background. i just think MIStyping in certain directions has to do with cultural background. people WANT to identify themselves with culturally accepted norms.

    (it's funny because i think whatever is an ENTP, and she posted that her background praises the SP mentality)

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