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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I don't know... I'm skeptical... I mean, you get national and cultural stereotypes but they seldom hold true in reality. I've been to Ireland, France, Italy, Africa, Asia... and pretty much everywhere it's the same. There are flighty people, there are academics, stuffy dry people and spontaneous social people, the whole range of personalities exists in every single country on earth... I think the only thing that changes is the generally accepted modes of manifesting certain mentalities and traits, the communication methods and standards.

    What I mean is that whilst doing Thing A in one country might have you perceived as one thing, it might have you perceived as an entirely different thing in another country. So people with the same mentalities and personal takes on the world might present it differently, depending on the 'audience' they've been trained to present to.

    I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.
    Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.
    I don't think that the "Irish people have big mouths" stereotype originated in the United States.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.
    What you just said doesn't contradict my point, in fact rather demonstrates it. It's not because the Irish are inherently 'mouthy' or 'outspoken' that this Irish person is considered to be so, but because the Irish ways of presenting themselves that come across as normal in their country are ways that are remarkable and different in America.

    IOW, Bill O'Reilly just said Thing A in the USA - thing A that in Ireland would've been perfectly normal and would've resulted in his character being judged/perceived in a completely different way to the result it achieved in the USA doing the same thing.

    I've known a good many Irish people who are very quiet and reserved, and when I've been there and see the personalities in their correct context - set alongside other Irish people in Ireland, it becomes clear that perceptions of Irish people outside of Ireland are more the result of cultural misunderstandings than characteristics. The quality that is thought to be on display from the outsider's POV isn't the quality that's being demonstrated from the subject's POV.

    If you want to get some real 'big mouth' stereotype misperceptions you ought to go to India sometime!! As a European guy amongst some Indian friends here, they came across to me as preposterously outspoken, domineering, loud, melodramatic and just plain rude. One is forced to interrupt and display behaviour that feels most unnatural and ungentlemanly to a European, just to squeeze a word in edgeways. But when I went to India and saw how they all are over there, I realized that my perception of my friends had been coloured by my view of the world through a European lens. There are certain cultural assumptions shared by most Indian people that enable them to behave that way without it being at all rude amongst themselves, assumptions not shared by the European, leading to this misperception of them being rude.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If you want to get some real 'big mouth' stereotype misperceptions you ought to go to India sometime!! As a European guy amongst some Indian friends here, they came across to me as preposterously outspoken, domineering, loud, melodramatic and just plain rude. One is forced to interrupt and display behaviour that feels most unnatural and ungentlemanly to a European, just to squeeze a word in edgeways. But when I went to India and saw how they all are over there, I realized that my perception of my friends had been coloured by my view of the world through a European lens. There are certain cultural assumptions shared by most Indian people that enable them to behave that way without it being at all rude amongst themselves, assumptions not shared by the European, leading to this misperception of them being rude.
    Hm... As someone who is half Asian and half European, but one that lives in a predominantly Asian area...I find that the behaviour of most westerners really stands out. It seems really rude/coarse somehow, as if they see the world in tunnel vision, even though they don't mean it to be. Asian people are reading visual cues 24/7, and seeing all things in a room as part of a room, for example, while the typical Caucasian would just see things as individual objects, just as they strongly feel that they themselves are. Regardless of type. They just seem to be more separate from the rest of the world, somehow. Hard to describe.

    I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.
    I agree.
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  5. #15
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    I know what you mean niffer, in fact I didn't notice that quality in myself until I travelled in Asia and spent a lot of time around Asians during the time when I was a Muslim. I think (and am told by the Asians I know) that it's been corrected to some extent in myself, but I'm still aware of how I can be insular at times.

    It seems to be more the case in the English speaking West, however, and perhaps the Germanic speaking countries (Holland, Germany, Scandinavia etc) as well, whilst the Mediterranean Europeans tend to be somewhat more attuned to their external environments.

    edit - I think when I've talked on here before about how I totally don't subscribe to the individualist and independent philosophies of the West but prefer one of communality and interdependence with both people and the environment in which we live - not just the natural environment but all of it - what I was trying to get at was something similar to what you're also trying to get at niffer - if anyone can thrash it out into words then between two Ne dominant types, I'm sure it can be done!
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I know what you mean niffer, in fact I didn't notice that quality in myself until I travelled in Asia and spent a lot of time around Asians during the time when I was a Muslim. I think (and am told by the Asians I know) that it's been corrected to some extent in myself, but I'm still aware of how I can be insular at times.

    It seems to be more the case in the English speaking West, however, and perhaps the Germanic speaking countries (Holland, Germany, Scandinavia etc) as well, whilst the Mediterranean Europeans tend to be somewhat more attuned to their external environments.

    edit - I think when I've talked on here before about how I totally don't subscribe to the individualist and independent philosophies of the West but prefer one of communality and interdependence with both people and the environment in which we live - not just the natural environment but all of it - what I was trying to get at was something similar to what you're also trying to get at niffer - if anyone can thrash it out into words then between two Ne dominant types, I'm sure it can be done!
    Funny, I think that there is too much groupthink and not enough individualism in modern Western society. I can't stand it when people look at a group as a whole and don't acknowledge the differences between people (they are to be celebrated). Plus, societal norms cut both ways. Some behavior in Asia may be considered rude or even bizarre to North Americans, as well (businesspeople going into new markets commented on this quite a bit in the 1980s).
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Funny, I think that there is too much groupthink and not enough individualism in modern Western society. I can't stand it when people look at a group as a whole and don't acknowledge the differences between people (they are to be celebrated). Plus, societal norms cut both ways. Some behavior in Asia may be considered rude or even bizarre to North Americans, as well (businesspeople going into new markets commented on this quite a bit in the 1980s).
    ...which is exactly what I just said in my previous posts!

    Except that I think we're using different definitions of 'indivualism'... I don't mean 'being and thinking as an individual' but 'believing life is all about getting what you want, when you want it, and fulfilling your own desires without thinking too much about how it affects others; and if you're poor and suffering then it's your own fault and if you're happy and rich it's because you deserve it so well done'.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...which is exactly what I just said in my previous posts!

    Except that I think we're using different definitions of 'indivualism'... I don't mean 'being and thinking as an individual' but 'believing life is all about getting what you want, when you want it, and fulfilling your own desires without thinking too much about how it affects others; and if you're poor and suffering then it's your own fault and if you're happy and rich it's because you deserve it so well done'.
    Kind of, but "more attuned to their external environments" sounded kind of loaded. I mean, I think the Westerners are quite concerned with their external environment, but tend to take a more subjective sort of approach, as in "Wow, I really like that castle." We are certainly not self-effacing as a culture. The people from non-North American or Western European backgrounds I know tend to be more , which is fine, too.

    And for the record, I think that the "life is about getting what you want and fulfilling your desires" is not a bad attitude, as long as you're honest and respect other people's rights to do the same (or not to do the same).
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  9. #19
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

    What do people think?
    In the book I'm reading at the moment, a mafioso has been described as the typical macho, sensual Mediterranean guy. I find it hard to believe that all Mediterraneans are Sensors, so perhaps the Intuitive types from around places like Italy and Sicily seem like Sensors based on their culture. Especially mafiosi. The mafia is what most would dub a Sensing culture, but I think Intuiters could easily slip in there.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    In the book I'm reading at the moment, a mafioso has been described as the typical macho, sensual Mediterranean guy. I find it hard to believe that all Mediterraneans are Sensors, so perhaps the Intuitive types from around places like Italy and Sicily seem like Sensors based on their culture. Especially mafiosi. The mafia is what most would dub a Sensing culture, but I think Intuiters could easily slip in there.
    Interesting thoughts. Do you think that organized crime types would be Js, perhaps? If I were an evil ESFJ (what do you mean "if?" - brain ed.), I think that mob boss would be a good fit, actually.
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