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  1. #11
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    It would be interesting if neuroscientists found an actual correlation between areas of brain activity and MBTI type. I doubt that would happen though.
    No offense.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    It would be interesting if neuroscientists found an actual correlation between areas of brain activity and MBTI type. I doubt that would happen though.

    Yeah, I doubt it too.

    I like the idea of the eight cognitive processes, but I doubt that they are going to neatly section off as described in the OP... and I'm not sure how testable this theory is because I am not sure there are truly specific behaviors that we can say are associated strongly with each process.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Lenore Thompson breaks down brain area and functions this way:

    Front of left brain: Te/Fe

    Front of right brain: Ne/Se

    Back of left brain: Si/Ni

    Back of right brain: Fi/Ti

    Her source was brain diagrams contained in How to Choose Your Best Sport and Play It. (I personally would rather have seen a meatier source listed.)

    According to Lenore, current type research indicates that introverted and extraverted versions of the same function activate opposite sides of the brain. (It is not documented what research this conclusion is sourced from, however.) Te and Fe activate more areas in the left brain, while Ti and Fi activate more areas in the right brain. Se and Ne activate more areas in the right brain, but Si and Ni activate more areas in the left brain.

    Assuming her assertions regarding function activation in the brain are accurate, then her function breakdown classifying XXXJ's as predominately left-brained and XXXP's as predominately right-brained seems to have some validity.

    Not having a clear understanding of brain physiology, I'm uncertain what brain areas are being classified as front vs. back, so it's hard to compare your breakdown vs. hers, but you seem to be breaking down judging functions into the front area of the brain and perceiving functions into the back area, while Lenore is breaking down extraverted functions into the front area of the brain and introverted functions into the back area. I did not find any justification in her writing for that breakdown.

    I do wish I could look more closely at the research she refers to in order to understand specifically what parts of the brain are being activated and by what activities.

    I wonder what you make of her breakdown and what can be discerned about the logic for that breakdown compared to yours?
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  4. #14
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    I did find a little information online attempting to justify assigning extraverted functions to the front of the brain and introverted functions to the back of the brain.

    At least there is research cited, but still mostly supposition, it seems.

    BrainTypes.com - Brain Types & The Brain

    Extraversion (E): activated principally in front of forebrain -- anterior to central sulcus

    --personality—the prefrontal cortex is the most significant area for creating one’s outward “personality”.

    --Expressing language through conversation/speech (activated by Brocas [left anterior forebrain]). In general, Extraverts speak more and louder than Introverts. (Nurturing, environment, and genetic variances also affect speech patterns; thus explaining most speech differences among Extraverts [and Introverts].)

    A University of California medical school used PET scans to examine brain regions of people while speaking. They looked at the brain while they (1) made nonsense syllables, (2) recited the months of the year, and (3) recited a briefly memorized prose passage. While both the "mindless" recitation of the months and the prose passage used Wernicke's area (the top back part of the temporal lobe), ONLY the prose showed activity in Broca's area. The conclusion: rote memorized verbal tasks require little thought or sophisticated cortical activity. Bookheimer, S., et al. 2000. Neurology, Vol 55(8), 1151-1157.

    --voluntary motor movements (activated by primary motor cortex—anterior to central sulcus). Moving the body is an Extraverted (energy-expending) function, activated by the motor cortex.

    --high degree of “attention” to outside world (principally a function of the anterior forebrain—especially right superior frontal gyrus)

    --expressing emotion (left anterior forebrain)

    --dopamine (a neurotransmitter that says “do it” is primarily in anterior forebrain.

    --cingulate gyrus—regarded as the volition and will center (located in anterior forebrain); it causes humans to act. In addition, Extraverts are innately designed to expend energy whereas Introverts conserve it.

    --planning—an integral part of taking action and expending energy.

    Planning involves maintaining one main goal while working on sub-goals for that main goal. This is apparently one of the unique human brain functions. The National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland has published findings that show that that particular task is performed in the most anterior part of the frontal lobes called the fronto- polar prefrontal cortex. Koechlin et. al, Nature 1999, vol 399(6732) 148-151.
    Introversion (I): activated principally in back of brain—posterior to central sulcus

    --understanding and comprehension of language (processed in left temporal lobe—Wernickes)

    --5 senses (taking in world around self)

    --touch and pressure (parietal lobe—which controls the primary sensory cortex.

    Behind the primary sensory cortex is a large association area that controls fine sensation—weight, size, shape, etc.)

    --smell and sound (temporal lobe)

    --sight (occipital lobe)

    --long-term memory—stored primarily posterior to central sulcus

    --neuroscientists now suspect there are 4 separate memory systems in the brain (rather than one as long believed). Conscious memory of facts and events—hippocampus; associative learning (like Pavlovian conditioning)—cerebellum; emotional memories—amygdala; memories of learned skills—basal ganglia. These are posterior brain regions.

    --In Alzheimer’s disease, long-term memory fades as the posterior brain cells die

    --self awareness (parietal lobe)

    --Introverts conserve energy whereas Extraverts expend it.

    --reading (posterior region)

    Dr. Kenneth Pugh, Psychiatrist and Medical Researcher at Yale, has been studying the neural pathways which are generated in good readers. When the brain is asked to go from the listening and speaking modes to the visual spatial, yet abstract production of reading, new relationships between regions in the cortex are formed. This is true for all written languages. Skilled readers have engineered neural networks, which take the visual sensory input from "eye to meaning" in about 150 milliseconds. This is done through the dominant path of the eye to three posterior gyrus (areas in the back half of the cortex). The lingual, fusiform and angular gyrus collaborate to convert letters into meaning.
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    we see things as we are."
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  5. #15
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Call me bias if you so wish... but no, the brain is a lot more complex than that. It is my believe that yes probably personality (and if type truly exists) will be defined by patterns of brain activation. But those patterns will not be discrete areas of increase activity from large regions of the brain. It'll more resemble patch work activation of many different areas that can be variable across individuals. The division of these regions (I'm refering to something like subdomains of a magnet) varies from person. To get the average regions of people in general will likely give you a smear that will be completely meaningless as function regions overlaps so much.

    Brain function is due to the integration of input from multiple regions of the brain. To separate parts of the brain as being responsible for this and that is like saying a person's voice is just making noises. That's not true at all. It neglects all the fine details. A person can sing, speak in different languages, imitate sounds, whistle etc. It is true that certain regions of the brain seems to be mostly involved for a particular task. But function overlaps along with other regions. Some of them nowhere near that first location. Going back to the magnet analogy... say the brain is divided into these subdomains of irregular shape and sizes. A particular "type" will have increase activation of some random pattern of subdomains... a little bit here and a little bit there that lights up on during an fMRI scan.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that the individual regions that actually lights up in fMRI is a lot smaller than the variability that exists between individuals. Such that the summed average response in a population of even the same type gives you a nondescriptive blob.

    In response to "Brain Types" I've posted this in INTPc a while back... enough said about my disagreement with the interpretation of scientific knowledge.
    INTP Central - View Single Post - BrainTypes - Neidnagel

    I tried staying out of this thread... know very well opinions like mine is not conducive to discovery of new ideas... but I can't help myself.

  6. #16
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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  7. #17
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Fuck! No this is the first time I've heard of him and his model... but it looks interesting. There are times when I wish my knowledge on mathematics is better. Fourier transform and waves... DAMN IT!

    About his paper "Consciousness Reassessed", what he stated certainly can fit into my limited understanding on brain and cognition. I wish those diagrams would display though. Those broken image boxes makes me sad... My comprehension through pictures is so much better. :sad: Perhaps I can find some of his work from a library or something... More stuff on the to-do interest list. Thanks Nemo... (That was a sincere thank you with a sarcastic overtone just for teasing. I seriously like this stuff... if only the process doesn't hurt my brain. Ah well, no pain no gain.)

    Anyways, I haven't finished reading... but here's my incomplete personal model on how cognition works.

    You start off with a simple circuit with an on-off switch. Input enters from one end and if a threshold is reached, it outputs a signal. A small network of these switches linked together forms a parallel circuit. This is the center responsible for say monitoring different wavelengths of light that hits one part of the retina of an eye. The frequency of the summed output signal indicates the intensity of light, while the spatial pattern of the signals indicates location of input. This signal is sent to another parallel circuit. For another round of processing. Note that every single circuit has its own on-off monitor switch. Nothing fancy, just like a fuse that turns itself off when it's not running on optimal conditions. So the whole system is a mixture of parallel circuits hooked up in a series with each other... for god knows how many layers.

    Consciousness would be signals that continuously loops around this circuit. As long as impulses are being conducted we have memory. Both the spatial and temporal aspects of the impulses are necessary to encode for thoughts. I suppose you can convert that over to wave patterns... as Fourier transform states any shaped line can be represented by the summation of sine waves... I've never relate the on-off system of switches to waveforms until now though.

    Anyways, so the mind is like a weird computer with only RAM. No, that's not correct... consciousness is pattern of neural impulses within the brain. The physical and chemical structure of the neural network is the basis of personality/type... for it's that structure that gives you the probability of signal transduction that produce consciousness.

    Oh, can you please explain to me how holography relates with wave patterns? In uhhhh analogies or at least simple mathematics that does not require number sets and calculus if possible.

    Edit: I do agree with his belief that the study of cognition cannot be reduced to the bottom up approach of everything being nicely layered from simple to complex nor the top down approach (far too vague in my mind). Consciousness to me is relational. A pattern of brain activation, both temporal and spatial, that encodes thoughts rather than "x system on means one thing and y system on means another". There's simply not enough neurons in our brains to do that. Not even if each yes or no is represented by signal from a single synapse... (That idea, of individual thoughts being represented by a synapse, is in itself absurd.)

  8. #18
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    nightning,

    I'm reading at the moment The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.

    It was suggested in another book I was reading as one of the better explanations of Holographic theory. I don't know if that's just so for those of us lacking a scientific background, but I have found it thus far a very readable exploration of this idea. Reviews seem to indicate the first portion of the book where he embarks on explanation of Pribram's and Bohm's ideas very solid. Any criticism seems to be centered on where he travels beyond that in the remainder of the book.

    Thought I'd offer this to you or others in case there was interest.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  9. #19
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Oh, can you please explain to me how holography relates with wave patterns? In uhhhh analogies or at least simple mathematics that does not require number sets and calculus if possible.
    Sure!

    Images in holography are encoded as interference patterns.

    To get an idea of how it works...

    Image you're a little mouse in the corner of a swimming pool. You're sensitive enough that you can feel and measure the waves in the water, but you're totally blind and deaf.

    Then several people jump into the pool at various locations. Using only the wave interference patterns you measure bobbing up and down in your little corner, you're able to completely reconstruct who jumped in the pool, where they did it, how much they weigh, and even the shape of their body, etc -- even though you can't see them or hear them.

    That's basically how the wave patterns in Pribram's theory work. The information is encoded in the brain's wave interference patterns, not in any local unit of memory, although they may be locally reconstructed into intelligible information, like our mouse in the swimming pool.

    His theory explains, among other things, how someone can lose an entire lobe of their brain but later regain the lost functionality in other parts of the remaining brain -- because the information is stored non-locally. If you break a holograph in two, the same thing happens: instead of the hologram not working, you get two whole (albeit a little fuzzier) holograms. The information is stored in the whole, not in any part.

    Also, yes: I've read Talbot's book -- the first half is pretty good, but he does go off his rocker in the second half.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    nightning,

    I'm reading at the moment The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.

    It was suggested in another book I was reading as one of the better explanations of Holographic theory. I don't know if that's just so for those of us lacking a scientific background, but I have found it thus far a very readable exploration of this idea. Reviews seem to indicate the first portion of the book where he embarks on explanation of Pribram's and Bohm's ideas very solid. Any criticism seems to be centered on where he travels beyond that in the remainder of the book.

    Thought I'd offer this to you or others in case there was interest.
    Thank you Tovlo! I'll have to hunt that one out.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Sure!

    Images in holography are encoded as interference patterns.

    To get an idea of how it works...

    Image you're a little mouse in the corner of a swimming pool. You're sensitive enough that you can feel and measure the waves in the water, but you're totally blind and deaf.

    Then several people jump into the pool at various locations. Using only the wave interference patterns you measure bobbing up and down in your little corner, you're able to completely reconstruct who jumped in the pool, where they did it, how much they weigh, and even the shape of their body, etc -- even though you can't see them or hear them.

    That's basically how the wave patterns in Pribram's theory work. The information is encoded in the brain's wave interference patterns, not in any local unit of memory, although they may be locally reconstructed into intelligible information, like our mouse in the swimming pool.

    His theory explains, among other things, how someone can lose an entire lobe of their brain but later regain the lost functionality in other parts of the remaining brain -- because the information is stored non-locally. If you break a holograph in two, the same thing happens: instead of the hologram not working, you get two whole (albeit a little fuzzier) holograms. The information is stored in the whole, not in any part.

    Also, yes: I've read Talbot's book -- the first half is pretty good, but he does go off his rocker in the second half.
    Ah! Like x-ray crystallography. I can just imagine myself bobbing in the pool.

    Hmmmm so if you're going by that... then all signal input must occur over a broad distribution of receptors. Wait... or does it? No it does not! I guess the main problem with this model lies in how memory is encoded into waves and decoded back into information. The encoding part seems to be readily comprehended, a bunch of receptors at a baseline level of activation and input either elevates or suppresses the baseline. The problem is in how you decode interference patterns to get back information. I don't know enough mathematics nor computer programming to think. :sad:

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