• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fi vs. Ti (thanks to Virginia Woolf)

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I am an Fi user right? Yet my functions test will say that I use more Ti than Te.
I don't trust the functions tests. They're behavior-based, and it's easy to read one's own understanding of one's own thinking into the simplistic descriptions of several contrary functions. As for Ti > Te, let's assume for a moment that you're INTJ. This could result from several things: it's easy to assume all the "thinking" you do is Ti, for example, even though it's really Ni, especially with Ni associated with Te.

In my experience Fi deals with circumstances and standards I already have set guidelines for.

Or even those you haven't set guidelines for. Part of Fi development involves setting guidelines based upon greater experience and wisdom, rather than gut reactions of being offended or having one's feelings hurt.

It can be over something stupid, like why would someone make a comment like that unnecessarily? Or it may have to do with larger things. Sometimes stepping in to aid some of my views on justice, what warrants punishment, what I think or feel the lines and boundaries are, etc.

Yeah, in the typical xNTJ context, Fi is often easily understood as the NTJ's "hot button issues." They'll be nice and calm and rational and openminded, except for those 2 or 12 issues that offend their sensibilities. Usually, for NTJ's, these are along the lines of "Why is everyone so stupid?!"

But, these understandings and morales are already defined, then are applied to a situation to help it adhere to my moral beliefs.

Ti on the other hand couldn't care less what I personally think or feel about a situation. It takes a step back to objectively calculate the over all weight of each situation or circumstance. Coming up with objective ideas and understandings by working through and sorting a plexus of information into similar categories.

So Fi, projects into a situation, and Ti takes from it?
Fi, understands subjectively, Ti seeks to understand objectively.

How accurate am I on this?

Both Ti and Fi project into a situation, as you describe for Fi. Ti really really really cares about logical processes. Ti doms are very much offended by any reasoning with logical holes. (This is different than being offended by stupidity, though there is overlap.) I can be having a perfectly calm and reasonable discussion with an INTP, for example, but if I say something even slightly imprecisely (in their eyes), they'll hop all over me.

Fi thus projects one's moral certitude, as you described, while Ti projects one's logical/systematic certitude.

The reason I said that Fi projects out, is this:

Take a situation where someone walks in and recognizes something as wrong, or out of step with their inner moral compass. They are more likely to project out the Fi that was preexisting and defined. This would be Fi in action, though Fi as a function is internally structured.

Ti (in action) tends to take a step out of the situation and mull through its components in a more objective manner. So the motion of it is toward the inner world.
Actually, for Fi doms/auxes, Fi also tends to take a step back, in most cases. (Hence the "laid back" "P" persona.) In both Ti and Fi cases, the strong opinions are still there, but not worth acting on.


It may be I don't fully understand Fi, when I feel people see the most of it from me, it is because I already know exactly what the right and wrong is. Where I stand in a subjective manner, etc. Then I am just told I am stubborn as hell, and very much unwilling to bend on my view. Thank God for T in being an at least slight segway into a more interpersonal view.

My Fi, is already developed, and doesn't budge.

Oddly, yes, this is your Fi, but it is working this way due to Te (assuming your NTJ typing is correct). Fi dom/aux aren't as openly stubborn as Te types, and highly-developed Fi isn't so much about knowing what is right and wrong and imposing it, as it is about understanding right and wrong and deeper and deeper levels, just as highly developed Ti is about understanding logic at deeper and deeper levels.

As Te types develop Fi (in a positive way), they become more mellow, not more stubborn.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
I don't trust the functions tests. They're behavior-based, and it's easy to read one's own understanding of one's own thinking into the simplistic descriptions of several contrary functions. As for Ti > Te, let's assume for a moment that you're INTJ. This could result from several things: it's easy to assume all the "thinking" you do is Ti, for example, even though it's really Ni, especially with Ni associated with Te.

Good point. This actually makes a lot of sense. When I first started really looking at function orders I noticed a pattern with specific letter preferences. They were Ni, Ti first then Ne, Te Se, Fi Si, Fe. I started to see overall patterns for what the actual preferences were. I always scored Ni, Ti on the tests. Also the way I recognize functions, the externally perceived result, mostly for typing other people, is probably like having function dyslexia.


Or even those you haven't set guidelines for. Part of Fi development involves setting guidelines based upon greater experience and wisdom, rather than gut reactions of being offended or having one's feelings hurt.

Yes, you don't necessarily have to know how you will feel or react to every single specific situation, you just keep the condensed version handy, and for quick reference.

Yeah, in the typical xNTJ context, Fi is often easily understood as the NTJ's "hot button issues." They'll be nice and calm and rational and openminded, except for those 2 or 12 issues that offend their sensibilities. Usually, for NTJ's, these are along the lines of "Why is everyone so stupid?!"

Yes, I was having this conversation with a member in vent, about how nothing makes you angry unless it pokes your Fi. Then it is all consuming and feel compelled to address it. The unfortunate thing is that Fi can be subjective, and mixed with the more dominant functions, can cause some pretty strong behavior. In my experience.


Both Ti and Fi project into a situation, as you describe for Fi. Ti really really really cares about logical processes. Ti doms are very much offended by any reasoning with logical holes. (This is different than being offended by stupidity, though there is overlap.) I can be having a perfectly calm and reasonable discussion with an INTP, for example, but if I say something even slightly imprecisely (in their eyes), they'll hop all over me.

Fi thus projects one's moral certitude, as you described, while Ti projects one's logical/systematic certitude.

Ah, now that you say this, I know what you're talking about. I was seeing it as Ni.

Actually, for Fi doms/auxes, Fi also tends to take a step back, in most cases. (Hence the "laid back" "P" persona.) In both Ti and Fi cases, the strong opinions are still there, but not worth acting on.

Oddly, yes, this is your Fi, but it is working this way due to Te (assuming your NTJ typing is correct). Fi dom/aux aren't as openly stubborn as Te types, and highly-developed Fi isn't so much about knowing what is right and wrong and imposing it, as it is about understanding right and wrong and deeper and deeper levels, just as highly developed Ti is about understanding logic at deeper and deeper levels.

As Te types develop Fi (in a positive way), they become more mellow, not more stubborn.

I see the difference, and woohoo something to look forward to.

Incredibly helpful post thanks.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
i think Fi and Ti both project out at certain times... once an "unacceptable" threshold has been met... essentially i see them as "balancing" functions... they push the user to restore balance to situations that lack it...

pls forgive the imprecise nature of the terms "logic" and "morality", they were the best realistic proxies i could think of

xaqnc.png
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I didn't find the functions tests helpful either. I think part of it is because the functions we use most are ones that fade into the landscape for us, while the ones we use less or which we have made efforts to develop tend to be ones that we are more conscious of using. For example, I didn't feel like I could see how I used Ni, even though I was more aware of Fe and Ti in myself all along. I finally realized that Ni is such a part of my everyday lens through which I view the world that I had ceased to even be aware of it.
 

JivinJeffJones

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
3,702
MBTI Type
INFP
As long as you aren't implying that something an Fi user personally agrees with is something they'll find personally agreeable. Just ask Virginia Woolf, suicide.
 

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4

That graph is sometimes how the "logic meter" could be viewed in my mind. I hear and see inconsistencies all day long - most of which I've learned to "let go" because, well, they aren't that big of a deal and it would just interfere with making progress or just having a decent conversation with someone. So, you just ignore them - it's like cars passing you on the other side of the street. You see them, you're aware of them, but you just let them pass without paying much attention. But, once in a while someone's logic or assumptions are "so bad" that they fall below that threshold and you have to say something. This is usually when it becomes clear that their entire position or point of view is based on faulty logic, for example (SF's do this ALL THE TIME):

Non-Ti user: If they raise tuition next semester, I won't be able to attend school.
Ti user: They just finalized it yesterday. They are not going to raise tuition next semester.
Non-Ti user: Well, if they do, I won't be able to attend.
Ti user: Like I said, they aren't going to.

Non Ti-user (later that same day): If they decide to raise tuition, I have no idea what I'm going to do.
Ti user: :angry:

If you ever want to see a Ti user get frustrated or to leave you alone, just do stuff like that.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
i think Fi and Ti both project out at certain times... once an "unacceptable" threshold has been met... essentially i see them as "balancing" functions... they push the user to restore balance to situations that lack it...

pls forgive the imprecise nature of the terms "logic" and "morality", they were the best realistic proxies i could think of

xaqnc.png

This is great!
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I've isolated this as a Fe judgment based on external values. Many Fi users aren't interested in benefitting anyone else unless they've incorporated this value into their sourced database. Now take the strength and conviction of Fi if a Fi user has embraced this or any other value. Mountains can be moved since there's rigidity and determination in Fi.

The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment. If we're lucky and the person happens to instinctively LIKE being kind to others, then sure... it can a great function. But suppose it adopts the value that it has the right to anything that gives it pleasure.

Logic would tell you this is unreasonable. External standards would, as well. But the problem with Fi, is that it seems to be governed by the will, and the will alone. There is no way to make an Fi user understand that their values are wrong, if they somehow adopt values that are harmful or negative. There is no way to reason with them. The only hope is for them to somehow "feel" that it's wrong within themselves, which is unlikely if they start with too many flawed values and beliefs. That's what bothers me. It seems like Fi could internalize any kind of value system, no matter how flawed, and be unwilling to change it under any circumstances. No matter how many people beg them, or how many logical arguments you throw in their face.

How can one make an Fi user "feel" the wrongness of something if they don't already feel it?
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment.

I don't know if that's the fault of mistyped people or what.. but the idea that Fi is truly subjective and internal in all of the senses of those words (and arbitrary) upsets even me. Some people seem to associate Fi with their emotions. Except that's not Fi in any MBTI description. Even when authors disagree on many things, they don't get that one wrong at least.

Fi attaches itself to plenty of ideals outside of their imagination or emotions. Ideals, along with archetypes. Unless you're willing to say these too are irrelevant to the outside world, they do fall under the definition of outside influence.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment. If we're lucky and the person happens to instinctively LIKE being kind to others, then sure... it can a great function. But suppose it adopts the value that it has the right to anything that gives it pleasure.
Only an unhealthy Fi-user does whatever they feel like. My values force me to do things I really don't want to do on a everyday basis. I hold my values above my own personal needs and desires. And it is very important for Fi-users (well doms/auxs anyway) that their actions remain consistent with their values because to fail to do so, is to tear apart their very foundations of self.

Besides, I find many 'logical' people remain rational about something until it directly effects them and then they throw logic out the window. Being a logical person doesn't mean you are consistent and reasonable.

You assume logic will always arrive at the right decision; you too are a Feeler, so you believe that there are exceptions to the rules and should understand this is not true. You also assume that logic is always the most useful way to analyse a situation - that every problem has a simple straight-forward answer every sensible person could agree with. Of course this is not the case. There are completely different approaches to logical thinking that will arrive at entirely different conclusions when considering the same problem. How do you know which is 'right'? There is always a degree of subjectivity necessary in even the most rigid, impersonal, analytical thinking. How can you ever trust anyone to make the right decision? Some time or another, people will have to think for themselves.

But the problem with Fi, is that it seems to be governed by the will, and the will alone. There is no way to make an Fi user understand that their values are wrong, if they somehow adopt values that are harmful or negative. There is no way to reason with them.The only hope is for them to somehow "feel" that it's wrong within themselves, which is unlikely if they start with too many flawed values and beliefs. That's what bothers me. It seems like Fi could internalize any kind of value system, no matter how flawed, and be unwilling to change it under any circumstances. No matter how many people beg them, or how many logical arguments you throw in their face

How can one make an Fi user "feel" the wrongness of something if they don't already feel it?
This is like asking how do Fe-users know when not to be a mindless sheep and stop following an immoral cause. Like Fe, Fi doesn't exist in a vacuum - it has other functions, including Te, to help it make decisions and test its conclusions. All of the functions have blind spots, thats why they need balance to operate - Fi is no different to any of the rest in this regard.
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Looks like you've been solidly answered by Kdude and Southern Kross, Athenian. Can't speak for everyone else but when Fi manifests, right and wrong become crystal clear. Whether it's everyone else's perception of right and wrong is debatable.

To provide some concrete examples of Fe gone wild, refer to Salem, the attempted genocide of Jews, the treatment of heretics all over Europe, the attempted genocides in Bosnia and Somalia and the Crusades. Also, discrimination as it relates to gender, race or sexual preference.

There are no bullet-proof checks and balances to either Fe or Fi. We can only rely on an individual's moral compass.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Only an unhealthy Fi-user does whatever they feel like. My values force me to do things I really don't want to do on a everyday basis. I hold my values above my own personal needs and desires. And it is very important for Fi-users (well doms/auxs anyway) that their actions remain consistent with their values because to fail to do so, is to tear apart their very foundations of self.

Besides, I find many 'logical' people remain rational about something until it directly effects them and then they throw logic out the window. Being a logical person doesn't mean you are consistent and reasonable.

You assume logic will always arrive at the right decision; you too are a Feeler, so you believe that there are exceptions to the rules and should understand this is not true. You also assume that logic is always the most useful way to analyse a situation - that every problem has a simple straight-forward answer every sensible person could agree with. Of course this is not the case. There are completely different approaches to logical thinking that will arrive at entirely different conclusions when considering the same problem. How do you know which is 'right'? There is always a degree of subjectivity necessary in even the most rigid, impersonal, analytical thinking. How can you ever trust anyone to make the right decision? Some time or another, people will have to think for themselves.

This is like asking how do Fe-users know when not to be a mindless sheep and stop following an immoral cause. Like Fe, Fi doesn't exist in a vacuum - it has other functions, including Te, to help it make decisions and test its conclusions. All of the functions have blind spots, thats why they need balance to operate - Fi is no different to any of the rest in this regard.

:yes: excellent points, i totally agree

After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment.

that does not, however, mean there is never any adjustment of Fi values. what you'll see happen is that our worldviews will expand to accommodate previous misconceptions. for example, i used to think Fe/Ti users when, they drew away in argument, were trying to block me off. i have generally always thought walling off someone you love is a "bad" thing values-wise - because in my world, blocking someone off is either for the purpose of hurting them or a very final sort of "i cannot handle being around you" decision. there is very little that is altruistic or temporary about it. but when a Fe dom friend explained to me that she draws away for the dual purpose of protecting herself and also not doing anything to me that she would regret in anger, i had to shift my understanding. it still seems strange to me, but i suspend judgment of the behavior until i fully understand the intention. i do still think that hurting people is generally bad, and i will be very surprised if that belief ever really changes. still, while perhaps the value is rooted, it can always expand and contract, and be reshaped to meet reality.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
The way I see it, the ability to accept or perceive the "logic" of Fi depends on whether or not you believe there exists a universal collection (or a pattern) of principles, ethics or moral standards (or, IOW, some sort of values-based framework). And, whether or not you feel you need to live your life to the pursuit of these.

Fi principles don't come from nowhere - tracked throughout time and culture, the same themes have persisted for centuries, millennia: do good in the world, don't steal, don't cheat, don't hurt someone else, don't murder, take care of your children, take care of the elderly etc etc etc. Bear in mind this is not looking at personal behaviour or cultural practice, a different entity indeed.

I think (and this is just me thinking out loud atm) that Fi taps into the feeling of truth when aligning to these principles and weighs the pros and cons of each situation according to these truths. I define and refine these truths continually throughout my life. To what "feels" right. It's a life-long journey. Cue back to this idea of trying to access that universal framework.

Ti isn't logic, but there is a kind of logic especially appealing to Ti. I think Fi is made the same way, and my initial evidence is that most of us Fi-ers (doms and aux's esp) quickly recognize each other, whether we agree with each other's opinions or not. The Ti brand of logic is more easily expressed than the Fi version, since Ti and Te people can lay claim to supposed objectivity, whereas Fi and Fe do not enjoy the same commonality in dialogue, being essentially too tied up into emotions rather than the truths behind all emotions.

This is me thinking out loud to try to express this, and is in no way complete. Please add or subtract as you wish. :)
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
^ and above, this is where the idea of Fi being personal and only subjective would be transcended to something greater, a larger more comprehensive and universal wisdom that persists throughout time and space. Fi logic. Fi's not small, for in the composition of each individual world it all comes together to form something very big.

Just a slice from a bigger "truth pie" ... where there's room for multiple purposes and individual truths. And that's why all of us are made a little different, to access our little slice of that big pie.

I can't quite put my feelings into words atm. Sorry if this comes off as a bit pretentious.
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
1,579
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
^ and above, this is where the idea of Fi being personal and only subjective would be transcended to something greater, a larger more comprehensive and universal wisdom that persists throughout time and space. Fi logic. Fi's not small, for in the composition of each individual world it all comes together to form something very big.

Just a slice from a bigger "truth pie" ... where there's room for multiple purposes and individual truths. And that's why all of us are made a little different, to access our little slice of that big pie.

I can't quite put my feelings into words atm. Sorry if this comes off as a bit pretentious.

I think there's something to that. Ti works toward universal principles by understanding specific situations/frameworks/etc in depth. Fi likewise is honed by direct experience, but reaches towards universal values.

Also, Fi is still Feeling, and is still people-centric is many respects. While we can tend to be more selective on who we identify and empathize with, we still find it difficult spend much time in the "screw everyone else, I want what I want" mode. Not that we can't visit that happy abode, or be blind to long term results of our "makes sense in the moment" actions.
 

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I think there's something to that. Ti works toward universal principles by understanding specific situations/frameworks/etc in depth. Fi likewise is honed by direct experience, but reaches towards universal values.

Also, Fi is still Feeling, and is still people-centric is many respects. While we can tend to be more selective on who we identify and empathize with, we still find it difficult spend much time in the "screw everyone else, I want what I want" mode. Not that we can't visit that happy abode, or be blind to long term results of our "makes sense in the moment" actions.

After reading Peace Baby's post, a question popped into my mind, but you answered it somewhat here. I was going to ask, "what happens when an Fi user does something that violates those universal, Fi principles? When an Fi user cheats on their partner or doesn't treat someone kindly or otherwise causes pain or hurt?" And the part of your post that provided insight to the answer for me is the bolded part. The multiple times I have seen an Fi user violate these "treat everyone good and fair" principles have always been the result of a "made sense at the moment" situation. It made sense at the moment, but it was a devastating blow to the other person. I think what maybe compounds this problem is that the friend/partner of the Fi user sees them in almost an angelic way. The Fi user truly exudes this aura that they would never hurt a soul and so, over time, the other person buys into that. The Fi user has a way of gaining one's TOTAL and complete trust. And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"

T is my weakest function - I do have a bit of Fi, but not enough of it to really be "fluent" in it. It's still something I'm figuring out, so these explanations help.
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
1,579
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"

I'm only one INFP, not an INFP spokesbeing, so what I have to say is just my opinion. Still, my experience is that there's a lot of regret and self-recrimination when I hurt someone else. Compared to Ni-doms and auxs, we NFPs can be blind to the long term ramifications of some of our actions. Like INTPs and ISTPs, we can tend to optimize things for the specific in the moment, and lose sight of the long term trajectory, especially when we our younger.

So, I certainly tend towards having a lot of guilt and deep feelings of remorse when I have hurt others. Sometimes, it's cases where I should have "known better" or I went against conventional wisdom (again, I think we sometimes have to learn things to the hard way). I think most INFPs, for example, hold themselves to high standards morally, and it's difficult for us to accept the cases where we don't live up to our own standards. Clearly those things happen sometimes, and the cause can be our particular type-related blindness.
 

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I can understand how it probably isn't an easy thing. Just as a parallel, if I do something extremely illogical, that makes no logical sense (a Ti fail), that ends up with bad results, I'm very, very, VERY hard on myself about it. You guys probably hurt in your heart, however, while we beat ourselves up in our head/mind. Probably more painful to hurt in the heart, I would imagine.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I'm only one INFP, not an INFP spokesbeing, so what I have to say is just my opinion. Still, my experience is that there's a lot of regret and self-recrimination when I hurt someone else. Compared to Ni-doms and auxs, we NFPs can be blind to the long term ramifications of some of our actions. Like INTPs and ISTPs, we can tend to optimize things for the specific in the moment, and lose sight of the long term trajectory, especially when we our younger.

So, I certainly tend towards having a lot of guilt and deep feelings of remorse when I have hurt others. Sometimes, it's cases where I should have "known better" or I went against conventional wisdom (again, I think we sometimes have to learn things to the hard way). I think most INFPs, for example, hold themselves to high standards morally, and it's difficult for us to accept the cases where we don't live up to our own standards. Clearly those things happen sometimes, and the cause can be our particular type-related blindness.
I agree with this. I really beat myself up about such things, and sometimes continue to do so well after the other person is over it. It sounds OTT but it does help to adjust your behaviour the next time similar circumstances arise - I certainly don't want to make the same mistake again after all that self-torture. ;)
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I was going to ask, "what happens when an Fi user does something that violates those universal, Fi principles? When an Fi user cheats on their partner or doesn't treat someone kindly or otherwise causes pain or hurt?" And the part of your post that provided insight to the answer for me is the bolded part. The multiple times I have seen an Fi user violate these "treat everyone good and fair" principles have always been the result of a "made sense at the moment" situation. It made sense at the moment, but it was a devastating blow to the other person. I think what maybe compounds this problem is that the friend/partner of the Fi user sees them in almost an angelic way. The Fi user truly exudes this aura that they would never hurt a soul and so, over time, the other person buys into that. The Fi user has a way of gaining one's TOTAL and complete trust. And then suddenly, when the Fi user does something really hurtful it causes a lot of damage.

Please know that I'm not saying this to cause bad blood. Ti users (me) have all kinds of things that we do wrong. Nobody is perfect and I'm not placing judgment at all. But, really, how does the Fi user feel when they themselves have a "made sense at the time" moment and cause damage? Is it extremely deep feelings of remorse or is it just "well, hey, it made sense at the moment, what else can I say?"

Good questions INTPness .... I think the germ of the answer is here in your reply. Nobody is perfect. We are all simply human. We are learning and growing, trying to figure life and ourselves out. So having high ideals is quite a different matter than trying to always live up to them .... and some are more sacrosanct I would say? And we can get deceived by how minor one seems in the moment?

For example, taking care of myself is important so I should floss my teeth every day. And I try to. Yet sometimes I forget, and sometimes I decide I just don't feel like it. That appears small in the grand scheme. In the moment, not flossing one day seems almost inconsequential. BUT often, those little things are not so inconsequential as they seemed. Certainly not when I get unwelcome news at the dentist. The decision of the moment can have long-term repercussions that don't seem so big at the time.

Here's another angle, from a real-life example, and I used it in another thread but it works here too:

My daughter and I had an interesting discussion last week about swearing .... since I rarely use the F word, she can remember the times very distinctly that I have. This annoys me because although I try to have 100% control, that word does sometimes come out. And not only that, my high level of self-control makes the times I do "slip up" very well remembered. So compounding the issue too is that I think our very attempts to live to a certain standard make it so much more evident when we do not.

As far as how I feel when I have caused damage? I agree with the sentiments of Seymour and Southern Kross .... when we have somehow inadvertently hurt someone, it is a deep personal wound too. Myself, I will go to great lengths to try to bring healing and peace back to whatever I have somehow broken. And if I don't succeed .... there's a huge personal sadness that can last for years.
 
Top