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  1. #81
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ before getting into MBTI, i totally thought Ne dom was just how everyone thinks. i didn't know anyone thought any differently. i just assumed that was the way brains worked in general.



    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    Evil is something that you DO, not something that you ARE.
    i agree with you - and i do not condemn hitler as lacking any spark of humanity. for those who doubt, watch him with eva braun, there is a guarded sweetness that lingers.

    but what southern kross is saying is that we know internally that there is something not right about what hitler did, regardless of context. that is where Fi's independent double-subjectivity becomes important. everyone could agree, everything could be logically consistent, and there would still be something that strikes people as wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    If there is no dissent, how can it be wrong? Or at least, how can anyone be held responsible for it if is, since there's no way of seeing that it's wrong without a way of contrasting it with something else?
    I don't know where to begin with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    You can always contrast it with something else, if only with a past experience or a concept of how you would want to be treated.
    i think the latter is particularly relevant. Fi relies on body of baseline principles - much like Ti principles - like "humans are valuable" and "hurting is bad". things are wrong without dissent when they break these principles. it's really almost logical in nature. since we've already godwin'd, i'll pull this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Martin Niemoller
    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.
    if we don't protect each person, each "unit" as important individually, we run the risk of subdividing ad infinitum. thus we have to establish baseline principles affirming the inherent importance of each being. if we try to establish these guidelines as groups, we're already violating the idea, because every human in existence cannot possibly be present to weigh in. we have to form these principles individually.

    and we each have to trust ourselves, really. trust that there is some kind of core in us, some similarity, some spark of mental energy that inherently knows what should be done. trust that even without context, without logic, we remain capable of making judgments. Fi is how we know when an attack on one of us threatens the wellbeing of us all. yes, it's illogical, yes, it's self-centered, and yes, completely individual... and somewhere deep in our psyches, we need to have it. because then we are equipped to handle even the most insidious threats of destruction to our individual selves.

  2. #82
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Okay, I totally get the 'value judgment' thing now. Yeah, judgment = value judgment, it's all the product of subjective evaluation. So, let's say, '2+2=4 is true' is ultimately a value judgment I guess, however 'objectively' true it seems. No matter how widely it's collectively thought of as being true, 'true' is a product of subjective evaluation?
    Yes, I do think "true" is always the product of subjective evaluation.
    For example, depending on context and how you look at the question, 2+2=4 is not always true.

    2 males + 2 females = x number of babies
    2 fighters + 2 fighters = 1 pair of fighters as victors, or even just one victor
    2 birds + 2 birds = 1 flock (depending on species)
    2 geese + 2 geese = 4/7 of a gaggle
    In Base 3, 2 + 2 = 11

    and so on. Since humans are subjective creatures, everything contains an element of subjectivity.
    You cannot divorce the object completely from the subject, although you can get pretty close. I quoted an interesting source in another thread, about how people who have had brain damage to the part of the brain controlling emotion could not make decisions anymore without it; although they could rationally list all the pros and cons in each instance, they could not ultimately decide what to do, what was better. "Should I have the chicken or the beef for dinner?" People who believe that they are completely objective (free from the taint of the subjective or emotions in their decisions or evaluations) are mistaken. There is no such thing. Objectivity is like a shining orb of perfection, glowing above, yet just out of reach to Ti.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #83
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    Wow aren't FPs and TJs odd creatures? I just realized we have subjective subjectivity and objective objectivity going on inside of us.

    TPs and FJs have all that blurry in-between judgement, lulz.

  4. #84
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i agree with you - and i do not condemn hitler as lacking any spark of humanity. for those who doubt, watch him with eva braun, there is a guarded sweetness that lingers.

    but what southern kross is saying is that we know internally that there is something not right about what hitler did, regardless of context. that is where Fi's independent double-subjectivity becomes important. everyone could agree, everything could be logically consistent, and there would still be something that strikes people as wrong.

    i think the latter is particularly relevant. Fi relies on body of baseline principles - much like Ti principles - like "humans are valuable" and "hurting is bad". things are wrong without dissent when they break these principles. it's really almost logical in nature. since we've already godwin'd, i'll pull this...
    Well, okay. Those principles work fine in theory. But what if you find yourself in a situation where one group of people... is causing tons of problems for the majority of people, and the only way to stop them is to kill them? Suppose that they're all, say, crazy suicide bombers/gorillas or something, and they're constantly trying to dominate, frighten, and force us to their way of life. Isn't there such a thing as a situation in which it's necessary to exterminate a group of people, because failing to do so will spell doom and misery for the group of people that you represent?
    if we don't protect each person, each "unit" as important individually, we run the risk of subdividing ad infinitum. thus we have to establish baseline principles affirming the inherent importance of each being. if we try to establish these guidelines as groups, we're already violating the idea, because every human in existence cannot possibly be present to weigh in. we have to form these principles individually.
    But you CAN'T just believe that each person is important individually... there have to be some people who are more important than others. There have to be leaders, there has to be an authority. There has to be something to hold people together in a group, a common identity, or else you have anarchy. You have to have a loyalty to a particular group over another. You can't just... treat them all equally. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work in reality. Ever.

    What about heinous criminals? We can't just treat them as though they're as valuable as the victims, and thus reward them. The whole concept of enemies and friends is at odds with your way of thinking.

    and we each have to trust ourselves, really. trust that there is some kind of core in us, some similarity, some spark of mental energy that inherently knows what should be done. trust that even without context, without logic, we remain capable of making judgments. yes, it's illogical, yes, it's completely individual... and somewhere deep in our psyches, we need to have it. because then we are equipped to handle even the most insidious threats of destruction to our individual selves.
    This is insanity. I... give up. I cannot understand. I do not feel it! It isn't THERE for me. I'm sorry. I'm sure I violate these principles every day of my life. I think that we are just destined to misunderstand one another forever.

  5. #85
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    This is insanity. I... give up.
    Yes, we are all bogeymen and bogeywomen. Boo! Muhahahahaha



    Sorry. There's no where else to go. You've over dramatized. I may as well do it too. I should point out though that one fact completely missing on you is that everyone here has been open to dialogue with you. You had a good thing going here. And all you keep doing is insisting on how we're all difficult or too subjective. At least tried to speak with you. Get a clue, man. And stop being so dramatic while you're at it.

  6. #86
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Yes, we are all bogeymen and bogeywomen. Boo! Muhahahahaha



    Sorry. There's no where else to go. You've over dramatized. I may as well do it too. I should point out though that one fact completely missing on you is that everyone here has been open to dialogue with you. You had a good thing going here. And all you keep doing is insisting on how we're all difficult or too subjective. At least tried to speak with you. Get a clue, man. And stop being so dramatic while you're at it.
    There were a couple of points where it felt like I ALMOST had it, but you kept losing me every time you came to a certain point. There was always a point at which I felt like I was being asked to make a leap of faith that was too far. I can accept to some extent, the idea of Fi being moral principles derived from experience with human beings. If that's all it were, I could accept it. But there's always the tendency to make it into more than that... this irrational trust of a deep similarity and universal values that transcends all contexts, and that everyone is expected to be able to access within themselves.

    I'm telling you right now, that I cannot access this kind of morality. I am blind to it. I'm just being honest. I don't feel guilt when I violate Fi principles. I just... don't.

    I feel like I'm expected to understand it, or feel it within myself, but I do not.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, okay. Those principles work fine in theory. But what if you find yourself in a situation where one group of people... is causing tons of problems for the majority of people, and the only way to stop them is to kill them? Suppose that they're all, say, crazy suicide bombers/gorillas or something, and they're constantly trying to dominate, frighten, and force us to their way of life. Isn't there such a thing as a situation in which it's necessary to exterminate a group of people, because failing to do so will spell doom and misery for the group of people that you represent?
    Yes, that's why people with Fi have Te.

    Te. Knows. War. It's pretty much represented by the military...well, Te/Si is, at least.


    But you CAN'T just believe that each person is important individually... there have to be some people who are more important than others. There have to be leaders, there has to be an authority. There has to be something to hold people together in a group, a common identity, or else you have anarchy. You have to have a loyalty to a particular group over another. You can't just... treat them all equally. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work in reality. Ever.

    What about heinous criminals? We can't just treat them as though they're as valuable as the victims, and thus reward them. The whole concept of enemies and friends is at odds with your way of thinking.
    Again, that's why we have Te. Justice. Logical necessity. I have Fi, but I believe that people who are so sociopathic that they can never be cured who will only perpetuate further death and bloodshed should be humanely put to sleep.



    This is insanity. I... give up. I cannot understand. I do not feel it! It isn't THERE for me. I'm sorry. I'm sure I violate these principles every day of my life. I think that we are just destined to misunderstand one another forever.
    We kind of feel that way about Fe/Ti sometimes. Except I've reached a place where I understand the necessity of all of these functions for a fully working society.

    Deep down inside, though, Fi and Te make the most sense to me, even though I see how Fe and Ti are needed and serve their purposes.

  8. #88
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, that's why people with Fi have Te.

    Te. Knows. War. It's pretty much represented by the military...well, Te/Si is, at least.




    Again, that's why we have Te. Justice. Logical necessity. I have Fi, but I believe that people who are so sociopathic that they can never be cured who will only perpetuate further death and bloodshed should be humanely put to sleep.





    We kind of feel that way about Fe/Ti sometimes. Except I've reached a place where I understand the necessity of all of these functions for a fully working society.

    Deep down inside, though, Fi and Te make the most sense to me, even though I see how Fe and Ti are needed and serve their purposes.
    Te! Of course.

    That... actually makes sense. That was the missing part of the equation. I can actually see Fi working, as long as it's paired with Te to prevent it from becoming unbalanced. Te can make up for anything that Fi lacks, because it can make judgments on a basis that Fi wouldn't consider.

    You would think this would be more obvious to me, considering that I'm a long-time proponent of the idea that all Fe users have Ti.

    I think the Te/Fi combo works out really well in ENFPs, but I have trouble seeing how INFPs would make it work. I mean, they're stuck with inferior Te... it seems like it would be kind of hard for them to compensate for that and become more balanced. Goodness knows I haven't got enough Se to balance with my Ni!

  9. #89
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    What did you people do to my thread?

  10. #90
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think the Te/Fi combo works out really well in ENFPs, but I have trouble seeing how INFPs would make it work. I mean, they're stuck with inferior Te... it seems like it would be kind of hard for them to compensate for that and become more balanced. Goodness knows I haven't got enough Se to balance with my Ni!
    It's tough (as in tough, for me). Not that I don't use it, but it can be over the top when I do. As far as "informational" Te goes, I guess I'm overly reliable on others for it. This could apply in learning various ways in how the world works (and letting myself be guided along in some respects).. but also this could simply apply to "trusted" sources. Writers, for example, who make points that I agree with, but formulate them better. I'm kind of like an SJ in that respect - although more Ne. I still try to contextualize a lot. It's not easy when it all adds up, I guess.. But I'm definitely not just "Fi".

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