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  1. #41
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I am an Fi user right? Yet my functions test will say that I use more Ti than Te.
    I don't trust the functions tests. They're behavior-based, and it's easy to read one's own understanding of one's own thinking into the simplistic descriptions of several contrary functions. As for Ti > Te, let's assume for a moment that you're INTJ. This could result from several things: it's easy to assume all the "thinking" you do is Ti, for example, even though it's really Ni, especially with Ni associated with Te.

    In my experience Fi deals with circumstances and standards I already have set guidelines for.
    Or even those you haven't set guidelines for. Part of Fi development involves setting guidelines based upon greater experience and wisdom, rather than gut reactions of being offended or having one's feelings hurt.

    It can be over something stupid, like why would someone make a comment like that unnecessarily? Or it may have to do with larger things. Sometimes stepping in to aid some of my views on justice, what warrants punishment, what I think or feel the lines and boundaries are, etc.
    Yeah, in the typical xNTJ context, Fi is often easily understood as the NTJ's "hot button issues." They'll be nice and calm and rational and openminded, except for those 2 or 12 issues that offend their sensibilities. Usually, for NTJ's, these are along the lines of "Why is everyone so stupid?!"

    But, these understandings and morales are already defined, then are applied to a situation to help it adhere to my moral beliefs.

    Ti on the other hand couldn't care less what I personally think or feel about a situation. It takes a step back to objectively calculate the over all weight of each situation or circumstance. Coming up with objective ideas and understandings by working through and sorting a plexus of information into similar categories.

    So Fi, projects into a situation, and Ti takes from it?
    Fi, understands subjectively, Ti seeks to understand objectively.

    How accurate am I on this?
    Both Ti and Fi project into a situation, as you describe for Fi. Ti really really really cares about logical processes. Ti doms are very much offended by any reasoning with logical holes. (This is different than being offended by stupidity, though there is overlap.) I can be having a perfectly calm and reasonable discussion with an INTP, for example, but if I say something even slightly imprecisely (in their eyes), they'll hop all over me.

    Fi thus projects one's moral certitude, as you described, while Ti projects one's logical/systematic certitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    The reason I said that Fi projects out, is this:

    Take a situation where someone walks in and recognizes something as wrong, or out of step with their inner moral compass. They are more likely to project out the Fi that was preexisting and defined. This would be Fi in action, though Fi as a function is internally structured.

    Ti (in action) tends to take a step out of the situation and mull through its components in a more objective manner. So the motion of it is toward the inner world.
    Actually, for Fi doms/auxes, Fi also tends to take a step back, in most cases. (Hence the "laid back" "P" persona.) In both Ti and Fi cases, the strong opinions are still there, but not worth acting on.


    It may be I don't fully understand Fi, when I feel people see the most of it from me, it is because I already know exactly what the right and wrong is. Where I stand in a subjective manner, etc. Then I am just told I am stubborn as hell, and very much unwilling to bend on my view. Thank God for T in being an at least slight segway into a more interpersonal view.

    My Fi, is already developed, and doesn't budge.
    Oddly, yes, this is your Fi, but it is working this way due to Te (assuming your NTJ typing is correct). Fi dom/aux aren't as openly stubborn as Te types, and highly-developed Fi isn't so much about knowing what is right and wrong and imposing it, as it is about understanding right and wrong and deeper and deeper levels, just as highly developed Ti is about understanding logic at deeper and deeper levels.

    As Te types develop Fi (in a positive way), they become more mellow, not more stubborn.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #42
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't trust the functions tests. They're behavior-based, and it's easy to read one's own understanding of one's own thinking into the simplistic descriptions of several contrary functions. As for Ti > Te, let's assume for a moment that you're INTJ. This could result from several things: it's easy to assume all the "thinking" you do is Ti, for example, even though it's really Ni, especially with Ni associated with Te.
    Good point. This actually makes a lot of sense. When I first started really looking at function orders I noticed a pattern with specific letter preferences. They were Ni, Ti first then Ne, Te Se, Fi Si, Fe. I started to see overall patterns for what the actual preferences were. I always scored Ni, Ti on the tests. Also the way I recognize functions, the externally perceived result, mostly for typing other people, is probably like having function dyslexia.


    Or even those you haven't set guidelines for. Part of Fi development involves setting guidelines based upon greater experience and wisdom, rather than gut reactions of being offended or having one's feelings hurt.
    Yes, you don't necessarily have to know how you will feel or react to every single specific situation, you just keep the condensed version handy, and for quick reference.

    Yeah, in the typical xNTJ context, Fi is often easily understood as the NTJ's "hot button issues." They'll be nice and calm and rational and openminded, except for those 2 or 12 issues that offend their sensibilities. Usually, for NTJ's, these are along the lines of "Why is everyone so stupid?!"
    Yes, I was having this conversation with a member in vent, about how nothing makes you angry unless it pokes your Fi. Then it is all consuming and feel compelled to address it. The unfortunate thing is that Fi can be subjective, and mixed with the more dominant functions, can cause some pretty strong behavior. In my experience.


    Both Ti and Fi project into a situation, as you describe for Fi. Ti really really really cares about logical processes. Ti doms are very much offended by any reasoning with logical holes. (This is different than being offended by stupidity, though there is overlap.) I can be having a perfectly calm and reasonable discussion with an INTP, for example, but if I say something even slightly imprecisely (in their eyes), they'll hop all over me.

    Fi thus projects one's moral certitude, as you described, while Ti projects one's logical/systematic certitude.
    Ah, now that you say this, I know what you're talking about. I was seeing it as Ni.

    Actually, for Fi doms/auxes, Fi also tends to take a step back, in most cases. (Hence the "laid back" "P" persona.) In both Ti and Fi cases, the strong opinions are still there, but not worth acting on.

    Oddly, yes, this is your Fi, but it is working this way due to Te (assuming your NTJ typing is correct). Fi dom/aux aren't as openly stubborn as Te types, and highly-developed Fi isn't so much about knowing what is right and wrong and imposing it, as it is about understanding right and wrong and deeper and deeper levels, just as highly developed Ti is about understanding logic at deeper and deeper levels.

    As Te types develop Fi (in a positive way), they become more mellow, not more stubborn.
    I see the difference, and woohoo something to look forward to.

    Incredibly helpful post thanks.

  3. #43
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i think Fi and Ti both project out at certain times... once an "unacceptable" threshold has been met... essentially i see them as "balancing" functions... they push the user to restore balance to situations that lack it...

    pls forgive the imprecise nature of the terms "logic" and "morality", they were the best realistic proxies i could think of


  4. #44
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I didn't find the functions tests helpful either. I think part of it is because the functions we use most are ones that fade into the landscape for us, while the ones we use less or which we have made efforts to develop tend to be ones that we are more conscious of using. For example, I didn't feel like I could see how I used Ni, even though I was more aware of Fe and Ti in myself all along. I finally realized that Ni is such a part of my everyday lens through which I view the world that I had ceased to even be aware of it.

  5. #45
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    As long as you aren't implying that something an Fi user personally agrees with is something they'll find personally agreeable. Just ask Virginia Woolf, suicide.

  6. #46
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    That graph is sometimes how the "logic meter" could be viewed in my mind. I hear and see inconsistencies all day long - most of which I've learned to "let go" because, well, they aren't that big of a deal and it would just interfere with making progress or just having a decent conversation with someone. So, you just ignore them - it's like cars passing you on the other side of the street. You see them, you're aware of them, but you just let them pass without paying much attention. But, once in a while someone's logic or assumptions are "so bad" that they fall below that threshold and you have to say something. This is usually when it becomes clear that their entire position or point of view is based on faulty logic, for example (SF's do this ALL THE TIME):

    Non-Ti user: If they raise tuition next semester, I won't be able to attend school.
    Ti user: They just finalized it yesterday. They are not going to raise tuition next semester.
    Non-Ti user: Well, if they do, I won't be able to attend.
    Ti user: Like I said, they aren't going to.

    Non Ti-user (later that same day): If they decide to raise tuition, I have no idea what I'm going to do.
    Ti user:

    If you ever want to see a Ti user get frustrated or to leave you alone, just do stuff like that.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #47
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think Fi and Ti both project out at certain times... once an "unacceptable" threshold has been met... essentially i see them as "balancing" functions... they push the user to restore balance to situations that lack it...

    pls forgive the imprecise nature of the terms "logic" and "morality", they were the best realistic proxies i could think of

    This is great!
    Something Witty

  8. #48
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I've isolated this as a Fe judgment based on external values. Many Fi users aren't interested in benefitting anyone else unless they've incorporated this value into their sourced database. Now take the strength and conviction of Fi if a Fi user has embraced this or any other value. Mountains can be moved since there's rigidity and determination in Fi.
    The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment. If we're lucky and the person happens to instinctively LIKE being kind to others, then sure... it can a great function. But suppose it adopts the value that it has the right to anything that gives it pleasure.

    Logic would tell you this is unreasonable. External standards would, as well. But the problem with Fi, is that it seems to be governed by the will, and the will alone. There is no way to make an Fi user understand that their values are wrong, if they somehow adopt values that are harmful or negative. There is no way to reason with them. The only hope is for them to somehow "feel" that it's wrong within themselves, which is unlikely if they start with too many flawed values and beliefs. That's what bothers me. It seems like Fi could internalize any kind of value system, no matter how flawed, and be unwilling to change it under any circumstances. No matter how many people beg them, or how many logical arguments you throw in their face.

    How can one make an Fi user "feel" the wrongness of something if they don't already feel it?

  9. #49
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment.
    I don't know if that's the fault of mistyped people or what.. but the idea that Fi is truly subjective and internal in all of the senses of those words (and arbitrary) upsets even me. Some people seem to associate Fi with their emotions. Except that's not Fi in any MBTI description. Even when authors disagree on many things, they don't get that one wrong at least.

    Fi attaches itself to plenty of ideals outside of their imagination or emotions. Ideals, along with archetypes. Unless you're willing to say these too are irrelevant to the outside world, they do fall under the definition of outside influence.

  10. #50
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The problem, to me, is that it would seem that the values Fi takes on would be somewhat... arbitrary. After all, there's no grounding in either logic, or the external environment. If we're lucky and the person happens to instinctively LIKE being kind to others, then sure... it can a great function. But suppose it adopts the value that it has the right to anything that gives it pleasure.
    Only an unhealthy Fi-user does whatever they feel like. My values force me to do things I really don't want to do on a everyday basis. I hold my values above my own personal needs and desires. And it is very important for Fi-users (well doms/auxs anyway) that their actions remain consistent with their values because to fail to do so, is to tear apart their very foundations of self.

    Besides, I find many 'logical' people remain rational about something until it directly effects them and then they throw logic out the window. Being a logical person doesn't mean you are consistent and reasonable.

    You assume logic will always arrive at the right decision; you too are a Feeler, so you believe that there are exceptions to the rules and should understand this is not true. You also assume that logic is always the most useful way to analyse a situation - that every problem has a simple straight-forward answer every sensible person could agree with. Of course this is not the case. There are completely different approaches to logical thinking that will arrive at entirely different conclusions when considering the same problem. How do you know which is 'right'? There is always a degree of subjectivity necessary in even the most rigid, impersonal, analytical thinking. How can you ever trust anyone to make the right decision? Some time or another, people will have to think for themselves.

    But the problem with Fi, is that it seems to be governed by the will, and the will alone. There is no way to make an Fi user understand that their values are wrong, if they somehow adopt values that are harmful or negative. There is no way to reason with them.The only hope is for them to somehow "feel" that it's wrong within themselves, which is unlikely if they start with too many flawed values and beliefs. That's what bothers me. It seems like Fi could internalize any kind of value system, no matter how flawed, and be unwilling to change it under any circumstances. No matter how many people beg them, or how many logical arguments you throw in their face

    How can one make an Fi user "feel" the wrongness of something if they don't already feel it?
    This is like asking how do Fe-users know when not to be a mindless sheep and stop following an immoral cause. Like Fe, Fi doesn't exist in a vacuum - it has other functions, including Te, to help it make decisions and test its conclusions. All of the functions have blind spots, thats why they need balance to operate - Fi is no different to any of the rest in this regard.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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