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  1. #31
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Might as well do away with being human. We need to be wary of confirmation bias, but it's impossible to eliminate completely. There is always the chance that one is missing that one piece of data that would totally change the analysis, and thus unintentionally engage in confirmation bias in spite of being careful.
    I'm mostly concerned that a lot of people aren't aware of it at all, and just seem to be telling a person that they are whatever type they say they are. I'm not saying it's possible to eliminate it completely, just that I think perhaps it would be less prevalent if people had themselves typed by others more anonymously, rather than by people who know what type they think they are.

    I disagree a bit here. Especially as one gets older, the tertiary and inferior become important. All of the conscious issues with the dominant and auxiliary have been addressed, so the mind begins to explore other means of understanding. Overall, I find it rather useful to spot modes typical of a function in tertiary or auxiliary position: e.g., if one sees "tertiary Ti" in an "INTJ", perhaps they're INFJ without the "touchy feely" behaviors, or "tertiary Fi" in an "INFJ" indicates the reverse.

    I agree that one shouldn't use tertiary or inferior to "explain away" mistyping, which is simply an example of your #1 item.
    Note that I said LIBERAL application. And my biggest problem with it is when it's used too heavily in younger people rather than older people. I'm also more wary of people using the Inferior to explain behavior than I am of them using the Tertiary. It's just that occasionally, people use it to dismiss really huge patterns in behavior, which sends up a red flag in my mind.

    Paying attention to how the function might manifest in a tertiary/inferior role would be a GOOD use, I just don't like it when people just see a function, and decide it must be tertiary or inferior so that it will fit the current pattern, without considering that the way they're using it might be indicative of having it in a higher position.

  2. #32
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i agree with your points, athenian, though sort of in the same vein with what arclight was saying, i think some of these things can fall apart when you get someone who is close to the boundary in certain things. statistically there are going to be certain people who fall closer to the middle in every aspect - people whose Ne borders on Se, whose Te borders on Fe, etc - even that one rare person who hits near the middle on all of the functions. they will be very unlikely, yes, but they will exist. i would hesitate to ever jump to that conclusion for someone's type before ruling out all other possibilities, but we do have to acknowledge that someone is going to be like that.

    i actually wonder if there will not be a holistic effect with people whose functions are like that - in other words, if your Ne borders on Se, because Ne depends on Si, will your Si move closer to Ni? i would think so.

    and then there are some people who just have a random, seemingly "strong" function for certain reasons. take me and Fe - on tests, i often score very high Fe. that's not true, and it becomes clear when i'm breaking down my reasoning for things - but on the surface i think it could seem that way because i have been raised by a Fe dom, in a household that is completely Fe>Fi, and many of my friends are Fe doms. many F aspects already overlap, and i have taken on many of these people's qualities from interaction with them and learning from them. it kind of goes along with what you were saying about tests only accounting for behavior - a better way of typing Judging functions is to break down one's reasoning behind their behavior.

  3. #33
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Your points are good, but this J/P thing.. in my case, the undecision about the J/P feels more like a flaw of the system as opposed to my inability to handle it.
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  4. #34
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Your points are good, but this J/P thing.. in my case, the undecision about the J/P feels more like a flaw of the system as opposed to my inability to handle it.
    Jung made no mention of J/P as an MBTI letter. It was added later on. The real purpose of J/P is to help designate whether the dominant function is a judging (T or F) one or a perceiving (S or N) one. People tack on qualities to J/P like neat vs. messy or punctual vs. always late that miss the point of what the J/P designation was originally intended for.
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  5. #35
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I know.

    I was trying to address the points in the OP. For a person to have different Dominant function, and ALSO a different SECONDARY function, is explained by a very simple scenario.

    Suppose someone has equally strong Ti and Ni, both quite strong. Possible? Yes, I thought so.

    Suppose someone has almost equally strong Ne and Te, both very strong. Possible? Yes.

    If in this case, Ne becomes greater than Te, his best match will be Ne-Ti. He will be ENTP. The other way, Te is greater than Ne, he becomes ENTJ.

    It only becomes impossible if one takes too many constraints based on theory, not observance. The function order theory is a nice effort but not good. I believe the functions can appear in a dominance/preference order mostly independent of each other. There's 8 possibilities for the first function, and if we make no restrictions (as I believe we shouldn't), then there's 7 other functions possible as the secondary function.

    I believe in function strength measures more than I believe the MBTI. Hence, I believe in a flaw in the MBTI. I think the function stuff is good enough to be used, though.
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  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I know.

    I was trying to address the points in the OP. For a person to have different Dominant function, and ALSO a different SECONDARY function, is explained by a very simple scenario.

    Suppose someone has equally strong Ti and Ni, both quite strong. Possible? Yes, I thought so.

    Suppose someone has almost equally strong Ne and Te, both very strong. Possible? Yes.

    If in this case, Ne becomes greater than Te, his best match will be Ne-Ti. He will be ENTP. The other way, Te is greater than Ne, he becomes ENTJ.

    It only becomes impossible if one takes too many constraints based on theory, not observance. The function order theory is a nice effort but not good. I believe the functions can appear in a dominance/preference order mostly independent of each other. There's 8 possibilities for the first function, and if we make no restrictions (as I believe we shouldn't), then there's 7 other functions possible as the secondary function.

    I believe in function strength measures more than I believe the MBTI. Hence, I believe in a flaw in the MBTI. I think the function stuff is good enough to be used, though.
    I can see a bit of the Ne/Te and Ni/Ti things... but I do think we need some restrictions. For instance, I don't think someone can be equally strong in their shadow functions. One of the two strongest needs to be a perceiving function, and the other needs to be a judging function, at the very least. You can't have someone with Ti first and Fi second, or something like that.

    The way I see it, if someone has equally strong Ti and Ni, that means they're either an ISTP or an INFJ, depending on whether their Fe or Se is stronger. If someone has equally strong Ne and Te, that means they're either ESTJ or ENFP, again depending on strength of preference. However, I know that that's because I appreciate the pre-defined function orders as "ideal" types that people tend towards, just as geometric shapes are "ideal" shapes that real shapes tend towards. If that makes sense.

    Essentially, if a person doesn't embody enough of their auxiliary function, and has two introverted or extraverted functions that are stronger, that means that they need to develop their recommended auxiliary in order to be more balanced people.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Hey Athenian, great post. I definitely commit these sins and see them committed.

    I really only have something to add about #3.


    3. Liberal allocation of the shadow functions.

    If a claimed INFJ seems more like an ISTP, people will just cite tertiary Ti and inferior Se as the culprits. If an claimed INTP seems more like an ISFJ, people will just cite tertiary Si and inferior Fe as the culprits. Sigh... the shadow does NOT work that way. A person's basic behavior while not under stress, would not be more like that of their shadow, at least not until they're older and they've consciously tried hard to integrate it. I can tolerate a provision for allowing the shadow traits to come up once in a while when it's not part of the typical pattern, but you can't use that to dismiss a huge, major pattern in their personality!
    I think this is right, people don't recognize how weak the tertiary is, it can NOT just supersede the dominant function. But I think the inferior function is actually really important, because it can manifest itself in a way occasionally as dominantly as the dominant function, it's just in a negative, crude way. A lot of people recognize their inferior/negative descriptions better than their normal descriptions.

    Sidebar: Eric was right in reminding you that those aren't the shadow functions. Although, I should add that the inferior falls under neither category of conscious/shadow. The shadow is in the middle, it's the door that the unconscious functions sneak through when the conscious side is in crisis. You can't pull the shadow up into a higher consciousness, you have to go down to meet it. I dunno if that makes any sense, I find it hard to explain. Maybe I'll dig up the original text and quote it.

    As for authoritative scholars, I would say Jung, his closest original followers (Jolande, van Der Hoop, van Franz, etc), and the creator of MBTI, even though she kind of sucks. You know, Jung did say there are probably 16 types, but he also said right after that you could just as easily say 360. I wish he was on this forum, I have so many questions.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and then there are some people who just have a random, seemingly "strong" function for certain reasons. take me and Fe - on tests, i often score very high Fe. that's not true, and it becomes clear when i'm breaking down my reasoning for things - but on the surface i think it could seem that way because i have been raised by a Fe dom, in a household that is completely Fe>Fi, and many of my friends are Fe doms. many F aspects already overlap, and i have taken on many of these people's qualities from interaction with them and learning from them. it kind of goes along with what you were saying about tests only accounting for behavior - a better way of typing Judging functions is to break down one's reasoning behind their behavior.

  9. #39
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Note that I said LIBERAL application. And my biggest problem with it is when it's used too heavily in younger people rather than older people. I'm also more wary of people using the Inferior to explain behavior than I am of them using the Tertiary. It's just that occasionally, people use it to dismiss really huge patterns in behavior, which sends up a red flag in my mind.
    Occasionally? It's basically common practice for people to pump up the tertiary or inferior if they're undecided between two fairly different types, even though it's the function order (and the particular use of each function that this order implies) that makes a type what it is. An INFP with really high Si and Te is an ISTJ, not some fucked up INFP who somehow developed their lower functions because of difficult life circumstances or whatever.

    Also, you should add #10 - Arbitrary Function Equivalencies. Ti+Fe != Fi. Neither does Ni+Fe, or whatever other BS people come up with. You cannot rationalize things in this way and expect to come out with an accurate typing for yourself or for others. It just mires down the entire process in more confusion.
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  10. #40
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Athenian, your post is a good post given the premise that pre-given MBTI function order templates are okay.
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