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  1. #131
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So for Ni, it would be, "an idea is understood by its functionality [Ni] in the real world [Se]." Does that sound right?
    Excellent. "Functionality", if defined, relates to "Meaning"(which also relates to Purpose) which relates to "Answer" which relates to "Perspective" which relates to "Introverted Intuition." I know there is relationship between ideas but I cannot defined how yet.

    The "real word" relates to a "stagnant world" hence a "non-intuitive world" hence "non-ideas" hence "Extroverted Sensing."

    In other words, yeah...

    ...Ne-Si often considers ideas as having one function. (Either due to a lack of focus on "point of view" or the "Sensing" attribute of the "point of view - function".)

  2. #132
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    ...Ne-Si often considers ideas as having one function. (Either due to a lack of focus on "point of view" or the "Sensing" attribute of the "point of view - function".)
    Ah! Ni regards most ideas as overloaded functions. The arguments to the function determine which version of the function is used. This is analogous to words having multiple meanings, and the particular meaning is determined by its usage in context.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #133
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ah! Ni regards most ideas as overloaded functions. The arguments to the function determine which version of the function is used. This is analogous to words having multiple meanings, and the particular meaning is determined by its usage in context.
    How does Se play a role in this? On what criteria is the function or meaning determined? How is "context" identified?


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    1k posts. woot.

  4. #134
    Senior Member Thisica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Please listen very carefully.. You lost me at "sorry to burst your bubble"
    This is because No one is going to tell me what my bubble is .. let alone burst it.
    I appreciate that you have an opinion and it might even be valuable, The problem is ,, you have no manners from my standpoint and I refuse to deal with people who don't.
    This is tragic in the sense, that had you communicated with a little humility, and perhaps asked me to have a look at what you think, without riding in some high horse and your guns blazing, you might have something worth hearing.
    But I am not going to hear it.
    That is your loss BTW, not mine.. since my bubble remains very intact.

    Thank You

    Arc.
    Apologies for sounding a little harsh I just know that the idea of a limitless imagination makes no sense to me...but I didn't realise [when I was typing that message up] that other people wouldn't see it that way. Bubbles are, after all, quite flexible.
    “To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, & leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things by conjecture without making sure of any thing.”—Statement from unpublished notes for the Preface to the Opticks (1704) by Newton.

    What do you think about me? And for the darker side, here.

  5. #135
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In particular, I don't see INTJs as being oriented towards symbolism, per se. The "meanings" or "symbols" with which INTJs deal are predominantly technical in nature, and I don't have a difficult time believing that a technically-oriented INTJ might say, "Assigning greater meaning to things or events is fucking annoying." Fuzzy-wuzzy touchy-feely symbols and "greater meanings" would be very suspect - if not repellent - to most INTJs.

    Symbolism doesn't have an "if and only if" one-to-one relationship with Ni. It's a subset of the many expressions Ni can take.
    Symbolism was everything to Jung and his entire body of work which spanned more than 60 years. It's not as if it's a secret that only a select few know. Some have even speculated Jung was INTJ. My, how "repellant."

    The only alleged INTJ you can speak for, uumlau, is yourself. Not 10, 20 and certainly not "most." If symbolism doesn't appeal to you, personally, that's fine. To think you can claim what most INTJs would find "repellant" is a bit pretentious. For the record, there are INTJs with Literature and Psychology degrees. Symbolism, and understanding it well, plays a large role in both.

    As far as INTJs in this forum, you're not going to catch Z, who is an INTJ, taking an anti-symbolism stance. Google: Symbolism in thus spoke Zarathustra. The only thing I can suggest is you do more reading on Ni. Its connection with symbolism and meaning is well-known. By the way, this thread is about Ni, not INTJs.

    Ni - How is Intuition experienced when it is turned inward?

    Introverted Intuition reflects on patterns, relationships, symbols, meanings, and perspectives on matters from complex phenomena to magical connections to practical problems. The Introverted Intuitive mind typically creates a unique vision and arrives at unique insights about things, phenomena, or people. It strives to discover the essence of things and fill in the missing pieces of a puzzle. Introverted Intuitive types frequently will have complex visions or perspectives that they are unable to explain with clarity to others.

    http://www.personalitypathways.com/1...ty-types2.html

    Proposed definition #4: Just knowing

    Ni is a way of knowing (or at least thinking you know) that bypasses reason, facts, evidence, the expected or intended interpretations of signs, or anything you can point to, simply giving you an awareness or belief that seems indisputably true to you, period. You can't tell by introspection how you got this idea. There is no thought process. There is only tuning into this form of awareness and just knowing.

    For example: You've been interviewing candidates for a job. One of them has all the credentials, and scored the highest on all the company-defined criteria for the job. Another of them was pretty good but not in the same league. You have a sense about the high-scorer, though, that he's bad news, and that the "so-so" one will work out well. You can't point to anything that's let you to this conclusion, you can't justify your belief, but you have this sense just the same. To trust this unjustifiable idea is to orient by introverted intuition.

    http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Introverted iNtuition (Ni)

    * Foreseeing
    * Conceptualizing
    * Understanding complex patterns
    * Synthesizing and symbolizing
    * Future

    "This is how it will be."
    "Aha, that's it!"

    When Ni is a preferred process:

    * You usually feel a certainty about what is going to happen, often without much detail and without being able to trace the actual data that would support the prediction.
    * You focus on "what will be."
    * You are energized by transformational visions of how someone can grow or of a completely original approach to get there.
    * You are drawn to make those visions manifest.
    * Frequently you experience flashes of insight that present themselves as broad themes and patterns or systems of thought without being triggered by external events.
    * Inner images come as a knowing that taps into universal symbols and with a certainty that they are true.

    Introverted Intuiting is about Seeking Insights and Meanings

    It focuses on:

    * Identifying underlying meaning
    * Identifying the inter-relatedness of data
    * Synthesizing the information to reveal the "golden nuggets"

    Its approach is to:

    * Just state how or what action to take
    * Rely on insight to develop vision for the future
    * Envision without the need for tangible support

    Introverted Intuiting's verbal communications are delivered in absolutes with a quest for meaning, i.e.:

    * "Why?"
    * Identifying the hidden meaning
    * States what is going on behind the scenes

    Introverted Intuiting's nonverbal cues are: reflective, serious, and confident; may appear complex, disengaged; could appear hesitant to respond.

    To build rapport with introverted Intuiting, we can try:

    * Providing a theoretical framework
    * Using symbolic, conceptual language
    * Relating concrete experience to theories
    * Asking them to show you how they made their connections
    * Asking for the long-term vision
    http://books.google.com/books?id=aU7...page&q&f=false

  6. #136
    ThatGirl
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    In these references it seems that Jung is speaking about "symbols" as a type of abstract language.

    Which is a lot different than assigning meaning to something that it doesn't have to begin with.

    Perhaps my use of the word symbolism was inaccurate. I was speaking about people taking a rock, saying this is the rock of life, and giving universal meaning to it. At the end of the day, it is still just a rock.

    It would be far more accurate to find the meaning of the rock and how it pertains to life, and give that the title.

    I have no inability to grasp symbolic language, meanings, or patterns.

    Just like the Emperor's New Clothes, just because someone says this is the most wonderful and fashionable outfit in the world, and other people buy it, doesn't mean that actually is.

    Nor should it be fought over, worshiped, or given any other special attention.

  7. #137
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Well for you it was a car, for me it was a picture.

    Both happen upon a glance.

    I just looked at the hand and instantly knew this was a sensitive, and artistic person, who was a bit of a perfectionist, and probably overly judgmental of others, though is likely to govern themselves by the same standards, and picky as hell, with an eye for detail.

    Synthesize that information together, and you have a pretty good idea who the person is, and even more so, how they are likely to interpret certain situations. By this time, you are taking the next action, or making the next comment, you already have an idea of 1 of 3 ways the person will feel or act from that point. Each bit of information just re-tweaking the existing model into a bigger and bigger in depth understanding. Verifying much of what you already knew was true, and throwing out the parts that were just general assumptions. Then you have a complete perspective, and that ahh moment.

    Thats when they say the next sentence..... and suddenly you realized the conversation has only progressed two sentences worth. Lol.

    That is usually when I smile. And look at the person with utter amusement. They are like....what?

    Thats how it works for me. If that isn't Ni wtf is it?





    Yes

    Really? Ni is extroverted now?

    Whatever you're talking about here, and it could easily be Ni, is filtered through something extroverted dominating it.





    And potentially, that's why describing Ni is difficult: because most people describe something filtered through own dominant perspectives and imperatives, or reject descriptions that fail to satisfy same.

    There's something odd hidden away in there about different consciousnesses being like different dialects, some more or less mutually understandable, some not. It's odd because it demonstrates claims something about consciousness itself.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #138
    Senior Member Thisica's Avatar
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    We endow the things we care about with meaning. For me, this is obvious. To others, not so much. Hence the symbolism. But this symbolism need not be mysterious.
    Last edited by Thisica; 03-05-2011 at 03:28 AM.
    “To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, & leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things by conjecture without making sure of any thing.”—Statement from unpublished notes for the Preface to the Opticks (1704) by Newton.

    What do you think about me? And for the darker side, here.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I was speaking about people taking a rock, saying this is the rock of life, and giving universal meaning to it. At the end of the day, it is still just a rock.
    Is that the best you can do?

  10. #140
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Really? Ni is extroverted now?

    Whatever you're talking about here, and it could easily be Ni, is filtered through something extroverted dominating it.





    And potentially, that's why describing Ni is difficult: because most people describe something filtered through own dominant perspectives and imperatives, or reject descriptions that fail to satisfy same.

    There's something odd hidden away in there about different consciousnesses being like different dialects, some more or less mutually understandable, some not. It's odd because it demonstrates something about consciousness itself.
    I don't think we make up the information that we work with. Part of Ni, in my opinion, is recognizing all relevant factors.

    I also agree on why you think Ni is hard to define. Those factors are going to be subjective, unless universally taken in by the same receptive function.

    Since Ni happens in the mind, and not in the environment, people are skipping a step from A-Z.

    The process by which we take in information.

    From this conclusion it may be that Ni users are excellent perceivers of minute, otherwise unrecognizable, sensory detail.

    This whole thing is the chicken or the egg. With the answer being in where you spend most of your time. Gathering, or synthesizing. I tend to gather quickly, and synthesize slower. Due to the amount of information I need.

    As compared to say, an Ne Ti user, who would gather more information (slower due to the mechanics of volume), then synthesize it quicker, if at all. They spend more of the meta second taking in more, more, more, information than understanding it. If anything they rework it to see what else they can make.


    That was probably a stupid thing to say, just a theory. I never read Jung or anyone else. As a matter of fact the only thing I have read was Keirsy's Please Understand Me. Forgive my lack of specific knowledge.

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