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  1. #1
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Default Are there really 24 types?

    Are Introversion and Extraversion really a choice between one or the other? many people on this forum are apparent ambiverts. perhaps there should really be an A option for the first dichotomy that would display traits of both the E and I types it shared the other letters with. for example an STJ could be an ESTJ an ISTJ or an ASTJ. Several ENFPs (in fact, the majority of them I've met), ENTPs and ENTJs in particular are just not very extraverted while several I types like ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ and ISTP are often times not very introverted.
    my ENTJ best friend for instance can sometimes spend several days away from anyone and just study for 10-12 hours a day )only stopping to eat. he usually enjoys this and says that he just need to get away from people for awhile.
    I'm an ENFP and I feel stressed and crammed if I don't have 3-5 a day to myself listening to music and web browsing. I also score Introverted on just about every MBTI test I've taken, but I feel like an ENFP simply because their behavior, communication style and cognitive ordering fits me more
    my brother is an ISTP and he gets bored easily and is constantly out with his friends doing things while I would rather stay home and drink tea quietly for several hours (I get very cranky if my tea time is disturbed lol)
    and i know several more examples like this. perhaps the first dichotomy needs an A as a middle option for those in the middle as introversion/extraversion is a spectrum as opposed to one or the other like thinking/feeling sensing/intuition and perceiving/judging

  2. #2
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I would say you could easily tell and E from an I simply by watching the endurance level between the two. Introverted functions can't be shown to the world, otherwise they become extraverted. For example and INTJ will show the world their Te, but only when necessary because they can't keep the energy up where as an ENTJ (If strong enough Extraversion) could organize all day if they wanted too. Ambiverts usually get an 'X'.

  3. #3
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I wouldn't look at things this way (extravert or introvert). All people do both. We prefer a dominant function that is extraverted or introverted. There are degrees of preference. The rule is that I have to prefer one over another. That's what MBTI and functions are all about.

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  4. #4
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    depends on how finely grained you want it.. you could have a sliding scale with infinite precision for each dichotomy if you were so inclined

    a course classification system is not going to describe individual members to 100% accuracy, and a fine classification system will have too many types for a typing system to even be meaningful

    pick your poison


    there was some thread that gave good descriptions for "middles" for each dichotomy.. someone should go dig that up

  5. #5
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    there was some thread that gave good descriptions for "middles" for each dichotomy.. someone should go dig that up
    There's also subtype theories in Socionics, which partly applies. Except it's 28 subtypes.

    I would easily fall somewhere inbetween perceiver/introverted judging, but it's just not me to engage like an extrovert. I would seem more extroverted in smaller groups and preferably, with people I'd choose to be that with (or could be that way with). Heh. Which defeats the whole purpose of calling myself E.

  6. #6
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    there was some thread that gave good descriptions for "middles" for each dichotomy.. someone should go dig that up
    Mondo posted this idea before:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ambiverts.html

    And here was my reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I feared Mondo had opened up the door for this kind of thinking when he introduced the idea of dynamic type.

    If you want me to offer my version of this, I guess I'll play too. Presuming I believed in dynamic type (which I am not saying I do one way or the other, I'm just accepting the assumption for the purposes of description), this is how I would go:

    I/A/E (Introverted, Ambiverted, Extraverted)

    N/R/S (iNtuitive, Realist, Sensor)

    F/B/T (Feeling, Balanced, Thinking)

    J/M/P (Judging, Malleable, Perceiving)

    Thus (as examples using I-N-F-J as the potential statics in each position, and assuming Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, Inferior ordering):

    ARBM -- Xx, Xx, Xx, Xx (Everything is subject to change completely, although the functions are in an unknowable specific pattern at any given moment. Worst case scenario.)

    IRBM -- Xi, Xe, Xi, Xe (Well, the I/E is static... everything else is dynamic.)

    INBM -- Xi, Xe [N], Xi, Xe [S] (We know one in the first block is N, and one in the second block is S, but we don't know what kind or where... and it can change.)

    INFM -- Xi, Xe [NF], Xi Xe [ST] (We now know this is an INF with an EST shadow. However, the functions are subject to change, except that the first block contains some form of Feeling and Intuition, and the second block contains some form of Thinking and Sensing.)

    ARBJ -- Xx, Xx [Je Pi], Xx, Xx [Ji Pe] (We only know that this type has Extraverted Judgment and Introverted perception in the first block, and Introverted Judgment and Extroverted perception in the second block.)

    IRBJ -- Pi, Je, Ji, Pe (This is an IJ type. They use some form of Introverted perception as a dominant function, and some form of Extroverted Judgment as an Auxiliary. The specifics are subject to change.)

    INBJ -- Ni, Je, Ji, Se (This is an INJ type. They use Ni and have inferior Se, and use some kind of Aux. Extroverted judgement and Tertiary Introverted Judgment that is subject to change.

    ARFJ -- Xx, Xx [Fe] Xx, Xx [Ti]. (This type uses Fe in the first block and has a Ti shadow somewhere in the second block, however the specific location and accompanying functions are subject to change.)

    IRFJ -- Pi Fe Ti Pe (This is an IFJ type. They have some Introverted perception as dominant, Fe auxiliary and Ti tertiary, and then Extraverted perception as a shadow.)

    ANFJ -- Xx, Xx [Ni Fe] Xx, Xx [Ti Se] (This is an NFJ type. They have either Ni or Fe as dominant, and the other as auxiliary, but which is subject to change. The same applies to their shadow.)

    ANBM -- Xx, Xx [N] Xx, Xx [S] (I/E not static, otherwise same as INBM.)

    ARFM -- Xx, Xx [F] Xx, Xx [T] (J/P not static, otherwise same as ARFJ. Somewhere in first block is Fe or Fi, somewhere in second is Ti or Te. Exact position subject to change.)

    Anyway, this should give you an idea of what we've opened up here with permitting dynamic type... we need to use these models to figure out which functions are possible for each position with each letter of certainty. I don't want to try it with every letter combination, of course.

    This complexity, unfortunately, does not mean such dynamic type isn't the case, however. Some people may have significantly higher degrees of neuroplasticity than others, and this may be the best they can do.

    Do you see how annoyingly complicated this makes things?

  7. #7
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ yes. O_O;

    i don't have any problem with the idea of an additional letter, but i don't really find it necessary, either. part of the whole reason the system works is because it does force you to choose sides, even though you may in truth be very very close to the middle. but that's true for everyone... some ENFPs are ENfp, some EnfP, some eNfp, etc. like others have pointed out, we could add many more letters, but the system is a fairly balanced set of dichotomies as it stands.

    personally i just tend to think of it as cognitive, rather than social, extraversion, and it makes things much easier. i also have always scored I in tests but upon learning the functions, identified as a Ne-dom almost immediately.

    anyway in my mind it works like this:

    EJ : Extraverted ; Judgment extraverted : JePi
    emphasis on prioritizing info outside the mind ; secondary emphasis on collecting info inside the mind
    EP : Extraverted ; Perceiving extraverted : PeJi
    emphasis on collecting info outside the mind ; secondary emphasis on prioritizing info inside the mind
    IJ : Introverted ; Judging extraverted : PiJe
    emphasis on collecting info inside the mind ; secondary emphasis on prioritizing info outside the mind
    IP : Introverted ; Perceiving extraverted : JiPe
    emphasis on prioritizing info inside the mind ; secondary emphasis on collecting info outside the mind

    i think part of the problem that we run into is that extraverted Perceiving is a bit of an odd notion, because it is extraverted, but Perceiving is really a somewhat passive activity. (no wonder we can seem lazy...!)

    so that helps see why an EP might seem less extraverted than an IJ, because EPs don't tend to prioritize externally. unlike Je types we don't generally seek to prioritize our environments, even though we are focused on gathering information from them. so we may tend to act outwardly less, even though we do tend to express outwardly. whereas an IJ with an external agenda is going to seem more extraverted. and then of course having S, especially Se, adds a grounded depth that can make those types seem more classically extraverted than their N partners as well. T, with its rooting in objectivity, also seems to lend more groundedness than F.

    we are also going to retain some of the "contradictory" characteristics of our secondary process - i have also noted the "time away" that ENxJs seem to need, and i very much suspect that is characteristic of Ni processing.

  8. #8
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    it's true that their are balanced people of every type, but for I/E it's not as black and white. a T/F balanced ENFP is still Ne, Fi, Te, Si a P/J balanced ENFP will share NONE of the functions with a balanced ENFJ, thus a middle letter for N/S, T/F and P/J is unfeasible.cognitively, an ANFP would simply be Ne=Fi, Te=Si as opposed to Ne>Fi>Te>Si. being A would merely close the preferential gap between the functions 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6, and 7 and 8. most scientists agree that simply saying one is an introvert or an extravert is highly oversimplified.

  9. #9
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    an ANFP would simply be Ne=Fi
    Think about how rare something like that would be though - for a dominant and auxiliary function to be exactly equal. I guess it's theoretically possible but not worth changing the model for. There is also the concept of balance.

    You're right about saying one is an introvert or an extravert is highly oversimplified. I think a lot of people with a dominant introverted function seem like extraverts (layman definition of that word).

    It might be more helpful to look at a different system like Enneagram and combine that with MBTI or Cognitive functions. You then look at the overlaps and differences between the characteristics of each. Between those two things, you have an extremely rich framework for understanding.

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  10. #10
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Think about how rare something like that would be though - for a dominant and auxiliary function to be exactly equal. I guess it's theoretically possible but not worth changing the model for. There is also the concept of balance.

    You're right about saying one is an introvert or an extravert is highly oversimplified. I think a lot of people with a dominant introverted function seem like extraverts (layman definition of that word).

    It might be more helpful to look at a different system like Enneagram and combine that with MBTI or Cognitive functions. You then look at the overlaps and differences between the characteristics of each. Between those two things, you have an extremely rich framework for understanding.
    it's true. I'm a 7w8 which seems like it would be a fairly extraverted type, but self preservation 7w8s (especially sp/sx) often exhibit quite introverted behavior. many of them enjoy spending lots of time at home and their pleasure seeking nature takes a much more introverted and low key form. for even the most extraverted Enneagram and MBTI types, a self preservation dominant person is always going to be at least somewhat solitary and may have a propentensy toward hoarding/storing. with self preservation 7s with self preservation 7s, this takes a rather domestic form, building up a respectable (and often quite glamorous and elegant) wardrobe, purchasing comfortable furniture/home appliances, investing money in multiple income streams, investing lots of money in health/physical appearence and probably spending a fair on a hobby or pass time. a perfect example of a self preservation 7w8 would be Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development, and she's not really that extraverted.

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