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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It was assumed that whatever was rejected by the ego for it's dominant perspective would "collect" in an opposite space. So iNtuition is chosen for the dominant external orientation, and then everything else would be pushed off into the suppressed internal space.

    Yet, now when we add the archetype complexes to the mix, we can see why the Tertiary would end up reversed to the dominant orientation. It is the "child" (Puer) complex that tries to maintain the dominant attitude, and this reorients the tertiary function. (Because the auxiliary is taken by the support or "parent" complex).
    This maintains balance (unless the person falls into the tertiary temptation too much and totally neglects the auxilary).

    This is why I have seen that it helps to go back to the original four functions, separate from the orientation (which is how Jung originally conceived of it), and not get too hooked up in the eight function-attitudes. The eight have be be understood in light of the standalone four, in the two orientations.
    I agree, but I can also understand that the secondary set may not be as attitudally differentiated as the primary. After all look at all of those INTJs raging with their ethics in an extroverted way! (Fi-Se) power looking like extremely personal yet exposed Fe. I'm not saying it's not Fi, I can just see the lessening attitude differentiation.

  2. #12
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    as far as i understand it, using beebe's theories about jung's archetypes, here's why they're set up as they are - i'll use my own type as an example.

    we start with the doubly-divided dichotomy of functions:

    Perceiving: N S
    Judging: T F

    then apply I/E attitudes:
    Ne Ni Se Si Te Ti Fe Fi

    amongst these, we are necessarily going to have one that is the strongest - one that informs our worldview and provides the majority of our moment-to-moment motivation. we are also going to have a second function that provides the yin to the yang of the dominant function, as we have two function-attitude pairs to fulfill - we need one P, one J, one I, and one E - to be able to operate at all. we must be able to assess information (P), make decisions (J), attend to our inner mind (I) and attend to the outer world (E). whether we tend to pair PiJe, PeJi, JePi, or JiPe is up to chance, but whichever set it is provides the foundation for the rest of the function order.

    • so to begin with, i look at the 8 functions, and find my "hero", or leading, or primary, or dominant - extraverted iNtuition.

    • because my most-used function is a Perceiving function (N/S), it will need to be backed up next by a Judging function to maintain balance. also, because my first function is extraverted, my next function that provides support to the dom will need to be introverted. and understand, that this is only second in function order, not necessarily strength or skill. it simply means it will play a guiding/support role to the dominant. so i have to choose an introverted Judging function: T or F? i am F. Fi.

      so now i have the most important pair, NeFi, which gives me the full code of ENFP - an extraverted Perceiver (EP) who prefers NF.


    but we can run through the rest of the functions as follows:

    • to take stock again, we haven't used Ni, Se, Si, Te, Ti, or Fe. because my dom was a Perceiving function, it is strong enough that it will likely override my ability to use any other Perceiving function very well - that rules out Ni, Se, and Si as tertiaries. in fact, i will tend to automatically look at anything outside of me in a Ne light, so there's no way Se will be anywhere near the top of my function order - actually, it ends up dead last. however, my Judging function, Fi, is less strong, so it can allow for the significant presence of another Judging function. but i already Judge internally, so this time an extraverted Judging function. because my auxiliary was Fi, my tertiary will balance as Te.

      the reason we don't have Te-Ti, or Fi-Fe, is to keep balance... otherwise you would be left without a F or T in your first four functions, and theoretically it would be extremely difficult for a person to function without any conscious control over F or T. the former would not be able to relate to other people; the latter would not be able to think objectively. again, also, it's about roles and not strength. perhaps an ENFP will seem to be more adept with Fe than Te, but we need Te to support Fi because it provides a - well, function that the other roles cannot. Fe cannot relieve Fi very well because you cannot fully extravert Feeling while you are introverting Feeling.

      but as others have pointed out, what tends to happen is that the aux and tert will be used together, and the attitude seems obvious, and the function seems obvious, but the fact that is actually TWO functions is not. for instance, an angry ENFP will tend to be very emotional and shoot a barrage of arguments at the other person. you can see the F through the non-logical elements, and you can see that it is extraverted, which would lead you to think Fe, but it's actually Te extraverting Fi - a Fi message being carried through a Te mode of delivery.

    • following that, i only have an introverted Perception function left to account for, and S has not been used yet. so my fourth function is Si.

    • then, because my psyche is already set up N-F-T-S in order of competency, the shadow roles will be filled similarly, simply with I/E attitudes reversed: Ni, Fe, Ti, Se.



    which results in the complete set of functions paired with (mainly) jungian archetypes:

    Ne "hero" - leads
    Fi "supportive parent" - guides
    Te "puer aeternus" (eternal child) - relieves
    Si "anima" (opposite sex) - grounds

    and the shadow (vicki jo, despite my usual ambivalence towards her, has wisely said: "you do not have the shadow, but the shadow has you*")

    Ni "opposing" - our primary mental hangups from resistance to using the dom "backwards"
    Fe "senex" - controlling parent
    Ti "trickster" - leads astray
    Se "daemon" - destructive creativity

    that is what i understand of the system behind it, at least. the key to order lies in the concept of dichotomies and needing to balance each individual out with its pair. much like a set of scales... tilt any scale too far and you go off the crazy end.


    *in soviet russia!
    Last edited by skylights; 02-12-2011 at 01:46 AM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    which results in the complete set of jungian archetypes:
    jungian archetypes has nothing to do with this jungian typology. those are function roles that you are describing and its not jungs work. jung did have idea of the shadow, actually two different type of shadows, personal shadow and archetypal shadow, its totally different from shadow functions from MBTI. not saying that the system you talked about is incorrect, just saying that you used wrong names for them
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  4. #14
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    ^

    my understanding is that jung developed the archetypes but did not apply them to the functions - beebe did that. which is why i cited them both at the beginning of my post.

    to be honest i learned this theory stuff from a website that i can no longer find and so don't remember a lot of who did what, if you can point out who was which parts, and what their appropriate labels are, i'd be grateful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^

    my understanding is that jung developed the archetypes but did not apply them to the functions - beebe did that. which is why i cited them both at the beginning of my post.
    its not jungs archetypes that he used for those, its some totally different archetypal model not related to jungs archetypes
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I agree, but I can also understand that the secondary set may not be as attitudally differentiated as the primary. After all look at all of those INTJs raging with their ethics in an extroverted way! (Fi-Se) power looking like extremely personal yet exposed Fe. I'm not saying it's not Fi, I can just see the lessening attitude differentiation.
    I see the function attitudes as more flexible now. They can't be made into hard objects. So it could be Fi+Se looking like an extraversion of Feeling (or skylight's example of Fi+Te), or it could be Fe in the Trickster position (for the INTJ; or witch/senex position for the ENFP).
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    its not jungs archetypes that he used for those, its some totally different archetypal model not related to jungs archetypes
    Hero, Mother/Father, Puer/Puella, anima/animus, Witch/Senex, and Trickster were from Jung. Beebe simply matched them to the function roles.
    They actually do have meaning apart from the functions. Abbott & Costello are a Puer/Senex combo, for instance, as are several other similar comedy teams. It is a familiar theme; hence, an archetype, from the collective unconscious. When it enters the personal unconscious; then it becomes a complex.
    (Originally, Senex was the shadow of the Puer rather than the Parent).

    Opposing Personality Beebe invented, to fill in a "negative hero" slot. Demon seems to have been coined by someone named Donald Kalsched who discussed it and the Trickster in light of trauma. (Like in the aftermath of war and other PTSD type scenarios, those complexes block out the damaging emotional content to try to preserve the ego's integrity). To Jung, it was a "negative anima".
    Beebe extended both to less-than-traumatic circumstances.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Hero, Mother/Father, Puer/Puella, anima/animus, Witch/Senex, and Trickster were from Jung. Beebe simply matched them to the function roles.
    They actually do have meaning apart from the functions. Abbott & Costello are a Puer/Senex combo, for instance, as are several other similar comedy teams. It is a familiar theme; hence, an archetype, from the collective unconscious. When it enters the personal unconscious; then it becomes a complex.
    (Originally, Senex was the shadow of the Puer rather than the Parent).

    Opposing Personality Beebe invented, to fill in a "negative hero" slot. Demon seems to have been coined by someone named Donald Kalsched who discussed it and the Trickster in light of trauma. (Like in the aftermath of war and other PTSD type scenarios, those complexes block out the damaging emotional content to try to preserve the ego's integrity). To Jung, it was a "negative anima".
    Beebe extended both to less-than-traumatic circumstances.
    he didnt just match the archetypes to fir the function roles, he uses the word archetype in totally different meaning and gives new meanings to the individual archetypes also. even tho if beebe has had this idea of archetypes from jung, he changed the concept so much that its totally different thing, so that he could apply it to something that jung never intended to.
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  9. #19
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    Yeah; that pretty much was explained to me basically by someone who disagrees with the way he has used several of the archetypes, and I can see the objection. I wonder if those might have been the best archetypes for the function roles, but for now, they do seem to make some sense.

    I look at them as special instances of the archetypes. It's not either or. The archetypes cover many types of situations, so there is no reason they cannot explain these function roles, and still maintain their archaic identity beyond them.
    The tertiary function does seem to become connected with a genuine Puer (eternal child) complex, and the inferior with the anima/animus. It makes sense, as anima/animus is about everything "other" than the ego, so that will include the opposite gender, the opposite function and the opposite I/E orientation.

    With the shadows, it becomes more loose, but they do still seem to make sense. The shadow of the auxiliary (by which we confidently support others) being a negative parent figure, like a witch or senex (it was suggested to me that "Crone" might have been a better female counterpart to the senex).
    I guess that does carry a usually negative connotation that was not necessarily so in the original archetype. (The positive side of the function complex, "wise old man" would cover the original meaning). But it does seem to give you the general idea of the roles the functions play under stress. I guess Berens terms (which she calls "roles" rather than "archetypes") -lead, support, relief, aspirational, oppositional, critical, deceiving, destructive- would be better.
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  10. #20
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    its like ice hockey vs soccer. lets pretend that there is no ice hockey invented yet and someone who is looking at soccer has an idea that it might be cool to change the ball to a puck and play it on ice using skates and a stick. even if the guy who invented the new game and modified it to work on ice called it soccer because the rules are similar, its still a different game and those two games should not be mixed even if they would be called the same..
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