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  1. #91
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    This is how I view the distinction between N/S, seeing we've progressed on the topic. *I strongly feel I'm right about it.*

    *I just searched this, didn't know the exact definitions until now.*

    //Google:

    -Intuitive: instinctive knowing (without the use of rational processes)
    WITHOUT THE USE OF RATIONAL PROCESSES! YES!
    Now, ask yourselves for a split second, at least - which kind of people otherwise use so-called 'rational processes'? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat do we call them? Do we know? Anyone?
    Mace, my friend, don't use Google. That's the standard/typical definition of "intuition". Instinctive knowing really has little to do with Jungian intuition. It's important to distinguish the two. I posted Beren's definitions of Ne and Ni a couple pages back (they're pretty much standard MBTI though). Link

    Perhaps this is one of the root problems with the S and N "conflict" going on the net.

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    OK.. So on January 18th a story appeared in the local newspapaer about 16 year old girl who had been abducted a gun point and sexually assaulted.

    As per custom, Three or four of us stood around reading the same news paper and we stumbled across this story.

    As I read the story's details.. I just knew the girl was lying and made it up.. prolly to cover her ass for getting home late or something.
    Obviously people did not take me too seriously.

    SO yesterday I walk in to work to the sound of "There he is".. I then get called over.. front page of the news paper.. Abduction and assault story fake.. Girl admits to making up the whole story because she missed curfew..

    People are looking at me like.. "How did you know?"

    The thing is, I don't know how I knew, I just knew.. and I am not ready to credit iNtution ..

    I think, it's more likely, something in her words or the sequence of described events just seemed out of whack to me. I picked up a sensory clue on a subconscious level.. Some vague memory of a similar event.

    What do you think??

  3. #93
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Thank you, this is the reasoning I was asking for. I disagree, but at least you have a rationale. (I disagree that information gathering is the most significant difference between people, partially because I think a more important thing is where you go with the information you have. You can reach the same destination from different origins. ) I understand you're exaggerating to make a point, but Ss also ask how and why. We just rely a little more on the facts to answer how and why.


    Congratulations, you're clever (at least, at some things; or at least, people think you are, at some things; or at least, they want you to think that they think you are clever at some things). What makes you think Ss are immune to this phenomenon? It happens when you're reasonably intelligent.

    As an S, I can tell you that I'm not below-average in my speed of grasping concepts.
    fair enough, although I still think this phenomenon tends to happen much more frequently to Ns than Ss. since you are a facts oriented person (which probably actually has more to do with T than S), O.O.D.A. feedback loops can explain this scientifically. basically the N type's mind will go through the feedback loop (aka process) of intuitively grasping things effortlessly much more quickly than is typical of sensors. therefore Ns (especially NPs) can grow their base of understanding extremely quickly even from a young age with little effort (this is of course given they are in an environment where they are exposed to new information at a steady rate). Ss can be intellectual and grasp concepts quickly too, but I think it usually takes longer for this side of them to develop (with exceptions. one obvious example being Mozart). for instance, many Sensors are extremely wealthy and successful (the richest man in the world, Warren Buffet is an ISTJ) but almost every wealthy person I've seen under age 30 was Intuitive (exception: actors and athletes). similarly, most Ns are extremely up in the clouds and have no idea what is going on in the world even remotely until after high school. the main point I'm trying to make here is that less mature Ns and Ss are pretty much in different worlds psychologically until they become more balanced which usually takes a while. that's why I think N-S is the most significant dichotomy.

    personally I view MBTI kind of like singing. your voice type is your MBTI type and your singing abilities are your cognitive skills. for instance
    1) a soprano is designed to sing in a high area of her voice, a mezzo is designed to sing in a lower area of her voice, but a soprano can still sing low and a mezzo can still sing high, but if a soprano sings high too long she will hurt herself, vice versa for the mezzo. this is the same for MBTI I believe. if an N is constantly having to respond physically (in an intense way like being in the military) or an S is bombarded with too much theory at once and told "figure this out in a day" both will get overwhelmed, frustrated and psychologically fatiqued unless they have a chance to work up to this level of cognition.
    2) similarly, a soprano will generally be able to sing higher than a mezzo and vice versa, but some mezzos like Cecilia Bartoli can sing higher than sopranos, even though they are still mezzos. this is like an ISTJ who has stronger Ne than an INTP, yet is more comfortable and in his element with routine and tradition (personally, I can Te bitch slap the shit out of people, even though I'm an F). however, this generally doesn't happen right of the bat, hence why Ns and Ss are usually quite perplexed by each other until they are well developed
    3) just about anyone can have a beautiful singing voice, but how one achieves a beautiful voice is different depending on the singer (one would not train a Dramatic Soprano and a Coloratura Soprano the same way). similarly, an ENFP and an ESTP can both be successful entrepreneurs, but their means of getting their will probably be completely different.

  4. #94
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    I'm thinking the opposite. Due to the environment, most intuitives will think they are sensors.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Compare these two oil paintings. The first one is realism, easily what I would call "reflective" of real grapes. And the second is french impressionism which is not "reflective" of reality like a mirrored image, but rather an image painted from a subjective inner impression one might have of what they observed.




    Okay, I think I can see the distinction you're making now. Which one would you say is is like the Se and which is Si?

    My Mom used everything, but mostly oil.
    COOL. That is one I've never tried before.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #96
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I actually believe you've taken this matter a little too personally, IMO. Relax, dude - what I said was simply as I'd observed. I'm yet to see how you view the 'distinction' yourself, seeing you've already shown your bias in your take with N/S. If you think I was calling S's stupid, it's incorrect, because that's what you'd assumed. If you hold your own personal view about N/S, then good for you. There's nothing I can do about it.
    Is english your first language? If not, I'll lay off, but just be aware that you did say that. I'm an S after all, so I'm unable to read between the lines (well, without a manual) and therefore you must have said that.

    If it is your first language though, read your post again, one more time and tell me you weren't saying Ss lack intelligence. Hint: look at the phrase "well-developed cognitives" for a start (I'm assuming you mean well-developed "cognitive ability" or "cognition" because cognitive isn't a noun). Cognition means thinking ability/processes, basically. If you didn't intend to say that, I suggest you start choosing your words more carefully, because your bias is leaking through loud and clear to anyone with half a brain (see: thread). It's not just my personal, emotionally distraught opinon.

    Googling intution and sensing doesn't help your argument, since anyone who's been acquainted with mbti for more than 5 minutes knows that MBTI iNtuitive and Sensing has very little to do with the dictionary definition of intuition and sensing, which are both essential human traits. (again, if english is not your first language, I'll lay off, but you should become aware of the difference if you're going to discuss the topic). When I said "read a book", I meant a book about MBTI.

    The 'distinction' between S and N for me is the actual MBTI description, not just random shit I made up (although there are many online, and some are quite poor). Here's a fairly reasonable one from the official MBTI site:

    The second pair of psychological preferences is Sensing and Intuition. Do you pay more attention to information that comes in through your five senses (Sensing), or do you pay more attention to the patterns and possibilities that you see in the information you receive (Intuition)?

    Everyone spends some time Sensing and some time using Intuition. Don’t confuse Sensing with sensual. They aren’t related.

    Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you?

    Sensing (S)
    Paying attention to physical reality, what I see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. I’m concerned with what is actual, present, current, and real. I notice facts and I remember details that are important to me. I like to see the practical use of things and learn best when I see how to use what I’m learning. Experience speaks to me louder than words.

    The following statements generally apply to me:

    * I remember events as snapshots of what actually happened.
    * I solve problems by working through facts until I understand the problem.
    * I am pragmatic and look to the “bottom line.”
    * I start with facts and then form a big picture.
    * I trust experience first and trust words and symbols less.
    * Sometimes I pay so much attention to facts, either present or past, that I miss new possibilities.

    Intuition (N)
    Paying the most attention to impressions or the meaning and patterns of the information I get. I would rather learn by thinking a problem through than by hands-on experience. I’m interested in new things and what might be possible, so that I think more about the future than the past. I like to work with symbols or abstract theories, even if I don’t know how I will use them. I remember events more as an impression of what it was like than as actual facts or details of what happened.

    The following statements generally apply to me:

    * I remember events by what I read “between the lines” about their meaning.
    * I solve problems by leaping between different ideas and possibilities.
    * I am interested in doing things that are new and different.
    * I like to see the big picture, then to find out the facts.
    * I trust impressions, symbols, and metaphors more than what I actually experienced
    * Sometimes I think so much about new possibilities that I never look at how to make them a reality.
    You see how
    A) it's all about preference and behaviour, NOT skill (see: Jag's post if you're still confused about this)
    B) It doesn't imply that sensors are incapable of mentally connecting the dots
    C) it shows that both S and N look at both the big picture and facts, just from different angles. Surprisingly, they don't say that Ss need a "manual" to get there.
    -end of thread-

  7. #97
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You see how
    A) it's all about preference and behaviour, NOT skill (see: Jag's post if you're still confused about this)
    B) It doesn't imply that sensors are incapable of mentally connecting the dots
    C) it shows that both S and N look at both the big picture and facts, just from different angles. Surprisingly, they don't say that Ss need a "manual" to get there.
    OK, that much I can understand from you. Thank you very much for your time - and have a good day.

  8. #98
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    I love people who talk about having 'strong', 'developed' or 'healthy' functions. It tickles my sense of humour.

  9. #99
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    fair enough, although I still think this phenomenon tends to happen much more frequently to Ns than Ss. since you are a facts oriented person (which probably actually has more to do with T than S), O.O.D.A. feedback loops can explain this scientifically. basically the N type's mind will go through the feedback loop (aka process) of intuitively grasping things effortlessly much more quickly than is typical of sensors. therefore Ns (especially NPs) can grow their base of understanding extremely quickly even from a young age with little effort (this is of course given they are in an environment where they are exposed to new information at a steady rate). Ss can be intellectual and grasp concepts quickly too, but I think it usually takes longer for this side of them to develop (with exceptions. one obvious example being Mozart). for instance, many Sensors are extremely wealthy and successful (the richest man in the world, Warren Buffet is an ISTJ) but almost every wealthy person I've seen under age 30 was Intuitive (exception: actors and athletes). similarly, most Ns are extremely up in the clouds and have no idea what is going on in the world even remotely until after high school. the main point I'm trying to make here is that less mature Ns and Ss are pretty much in different worlds psychologically until they become more balanced which usually takes a while. that's why I think N-S is the most significant dichotomy.
    See: preference and not skill.
    personally I view MBTI kind of like singing. your voice type is your MBTI type and your singing abilities are your cognitive skills. for instance
    1) a soprano is designed to sing in a high area of her voice, a mezzo is designed to sing in a lower area of her voice, but a soprano can still sing low and a mezzo can still sing high, but if a soprano sings high too long she will hurt herself, vice versa for the mezzo. this is the same for MBTI I believe. if an N is constantly having to respond physically (in an intense way like being in the military) or an S is bombarded with too much theory at once and told "figure this out in a day" both will get overwhelmed, frustrated and psychologically fatiqued unless they have a chance to work up to this level of cognition.
    I agree, with the caveat that I don't mind theory at all as long as it has a practical application and good examples. (I'm in science, so I have to be comfortable with theories!). Something more abstract like a theory about how numbers should be organized or something, not so much.

    2) similarly, a soprano will generally be able to sing higher than a mezzo and vice versa, but some mezzos like Cecilia Bartoli can sing higher than sopranos, even though they are still mezzos. this is like an ISTJ who has stronger Ne than an INTP, yet is more comfortable and in his element with routine and tradition (personally, I can Te bitch slap the shit out of people, even though I'm an F). however, this generally doesn't happen right of the bat, hence why Ns and Ss are usually quite perplexed by each other until they are well developed
    Again, see: preference not skill. Re-read Jag's post. Yes they will probably be correlated in many cases, but MBTI is actually defined by preferences.

    3) just about anyone can have a beautiful singing voice, but how one achieves a beautiful voice is different depending on the singer (one would not train a Dramatic Soprano and a Coloratura Soprano the same way). similarly, an ENFP and an ESTP can both be successful entrepreneurs, but their means of getting their will probably be completely different.
    This I agree with, at least in a vague overall kind of way.
    -end of thread-

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Elfy, you are usually on point, but not on one point. The information gathered is the same. What's done with it is different. Both analyze it, but the analysis is different .

    An S (and I would hope an N) asks all 5 of the questions.
    I dont generally ask questions I'm good like that

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