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  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Hmm yes but INFJ logical and INTJ emotional don't look alike. And I know a couple or three INFJs who seem especially Ti-ish who I still know are INFJs and their Fe shines like a light they can't hide under a bushel.
    Yes, of course. That's the other thing... sometimes the tertiary function is heavily developed. So a heavily introverted INFJ can be very Ni-Ti, and a heavily introverted INTJ can be very Ni-Fi. That's when they get mistaken for other types, sometimes even by themselves. I've also had a lot of INTJs suggest I was an INTJ, and a lot of INTPs suggest I was an INTP... at various times. Although, that's probably because I'm deliberately curbing emotional response in interaction with them, which is ironically a very Fe thing to do.

    Now of course, the difference between the two types is STILL obvious to anyone who knows that INTJs use Fi/Te, and INFJs use Ti/Fe. But someone using temperament theory could easily misinterpret an INFJs Ni-Ti for being an NT, or an INTJs Ni-Fi for being an NF. I've seen it happen. Basically, I'm arguing that temperament theory is generally less useful compared to looking at functions, because it often leads people to incorrect conclusions.
    Same with INTJs ... their emo doesn't look like Fe to me. It looks like sweet, childlike (and occasionally insanely immature and vindictive "MY WAY MY WAY") Fi.
    Hehe. I would have to agree with that.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, of course. That's the other thing... sometimes the tertiary function is heavily developed. So a heavily introverted INFJ can be very Ni-Ti, and a heavily introverted INTJ can be very Ni-Fi. That's when they get mistaken for other types, sometimes even by themselves. I've also had a lot of INTJs suggest I was an INTJ, and a lot of INTPs suggest I was an INTP... at various times. Although, that's probably because I'm deliberately curbing emotional response in interaction with them, which is ironically a very Fe thing to do.

    Now of course, the difference between the two types is STILL obvious to anyone who knows that INTJs use Fi/Te, and INFJs use Ti/Fe. But someone using temperament theory could easily misinterpret an INFJs Ni-Ti for being an NT, or an INTJs Ni-Fi for being an NF. I've seen it happen. Basically, I'm arguing that temperament theory is generally less useful compared to looking at functions, because it often leads people to incorrect conclusions.
    I do think you're right. I've seen someone on this site who likes Keirsey saying an ENTP is an ENFP because he doesn't differentiate between ENFP Fi behavior and ENTP tertiary Fe, when it's pretty obvious to most people who study type that the person is an ENTP.

    The other problem with Keirsey is making the mistake of typing someone by situational behavior. For example, someone with social anxiety might act more IxFJ around people they just met, even if they're a totally different type et al.

  3. #13
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    Also, I went through a Keirsey phase myself, where I rejected function theory because it got too confusing.

    Then it's as though one day I finally understood it. I rejected it because I wasn't getting something. It's more complex, and it takes long in depth study, especially for someone who thinks like I do, who isn't as linear.

  4. #14
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, of course. That's the other thing... sometimes the tertiary function is heavily developed. So a heavily introverted INFJ can be very Ni-Ti, and a heavily introverted INTJ can be very Ni-Fi. That's when they get mistaken for other types, sometimes even by themselves. I've also had a lot of INTJs suggest I was an INTJ, and a lot of INTPs suggest I was an INTP... at various times. Although, that's probably because I'm deliberately curbing emotional response in interaction with them, which is ironically a very Fe thing to do.

    Now of course, the difference between the two types is STILL obvious to anyone who knows that INTJs use Fi/Te, and INFJs use Ti/Fe. But someone using temperament theory could easily misinterpret an INFJs Ni-Ti for being an NT, or an INTJs Ni-Fi for being an NF. I've seen it happen. Basically, I'm arguing that temperament theory is generally less useful compared to looking at functions, because it often leads people to incorrect conclusions.
    Absolutely. Whether primarily applying temperament theory or attempting to decipher mbti type outright, it doesn't take long to realize how complex of a puzzle it is, that people require some amount of investment. Posting on this forum and otherwise, I assume that others analyze by function, though it doesn't seem all that prevalent. Or attempt.

    I think of it as playing reverse mental jenga. Or, for each person, one long, relatively simple algebra equation.

    Opposites, semi-duals, etc. Some are really lopsided.

    (Assuming mbti types translate cleanly to socionics, so long as you don't attach yourself to either system's set of functions) Interesting remark on the ILI/intp / EII/infj dynamic. I've read stories going both ways; whether it's the beneficiary perceiving his/her own type in the other or the other way around.

    thinking of you

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I do think you're right. I've seen someone on this site who likes Keirsey saying an ENTP is an ENFP because he doesn't differentiate between ENFP Fi behavior and ENTP tertiary Fe, when it's pretty obvious to most people who study type that the person is an ENTP.
    Another good example. You know, maybe I should have made this thread more generally about why I don't believe temperament theory is adequate for most purposes.
    The other problem with Keirsey is making the mistake of typing someone by situational behavior. For example, someone with social anxiety might act more IxFJ around people they just met, even if they're a totally different type et al.
    I actually forgot about that one, but it's true. It makes things too situational, and people can easily seem like different types in different contexts... so you need a picture of their overall mindset, not just their behavior. That's where functions come in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Also, I went through a Keirsey phase myself, where I rejected function theory because it got too confusing.
    Actually, that's what most people do. In fact, many people never move past that phase. That's what I was calling them out on.
    Then it's as though one day I finally understood it. I rejected it because I wasn't getting something. It's more complex, and it takes long in depth study, especially for someone who thinks like I do, who isn't as linear.
    As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. You saw enough examples that you realized your previous interpretation was missing something, and changed your thinking. That's an excellent example of open-mindedness and a willingness to question your own assumptions.

  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I think one of the keys to integrating temperament theory with type (and thus, the functions) is realizing that there are really TWO separate temperament matrices interlaced in the theory. The familiar one introduced by Keirsey is the "conative" model, and then there are also the Interaction Styles, which are "affective" temperaments. They are not usually called "temperaments", but that is exactly what they are; corresponding to the same four Galen temperaments.
    In fact, they are a bit more in line with the classic temperaments, which deal with basic social behavior, which is what "affective" means". "conative" deals with another "area" of behavior; and that is action and leadership skills (conative means "dealing with action"). That right there is one cause of confusion about temperament and type at times.

    So each type ends up as a combination of one conative temperament with a distinct affective temperament. Even the classic Galen theory was modified to allow blends, yielding four "pure" types plus 12 "blends"; yielding a total of 16!

    So while INJ's have separate conative temperaments, they are apart of the same affective temperament (INJ for N's, and IST on the S side). This will explain why the type categories supposedly neglected by Keirsey (Ni dominance, as well as the ST group) will still figure in type.
    ESP's and ISJ's have the same conative group, which also happens to correspond with the dominant function, while the conative group is all the ESJ's and ISP's will have in common. It doesn't have to be one OR the other, or even one being "better" or "not as accurate". The different concepts are explaining different angles of personality type.

    So to me, it looks like they all work together.
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  7. #17
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    I believe this is something you see more frequently with INFJs... especially those here on the forum who are more analytical frequently use Ni Ti which may resemble NTs on the surface. But INFJs and INTJs are very different.

    So it's more like
    INFJs -> most similar to NTs
    INTJ -> most similar to NFs
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  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I believe this is something you see more frequently with INFJs... especially those here on the forum who are more analytical frequently use Ni Ti which may resemble NTs on the surface. But INFJs and INTJs are very different.

    So it's more like
    INFJs -> most similar to NTs
    INTJ -> most similar to NFs
    Yes, that's what I mean. I have met some INTJs who mistook themselves for NFs in general, but they tended to use Fi where INFJs use Fe, so you could still tell them apart. They were more likely to relate to INFPs than INFJs.

    Although, INTJs and INFJs still have more in common with each other than with most other types. The biggest similarity is that they can feel like they're not NT enough due to idealizing their own ideas and strong passion, and we can feel like we're not NF enough due to a need for practical goals, order, and obsessive analysis.

    The main thing I wanted to illustrate is that INJs seem to exist at a point on the spectrum where the temperaments are not as distinct from each other. The types themselves, however, are quite distinct. And if you consider the whole type, the distinctions are made much more obvious and intuitive.

  9. #19
    violaine
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    ^Agree.

    I'm INFJ and I don't identify strongly with the reputation for effusiveness or demonstrable vulnerability that those with the feeling preference often have. I'm an intuitive first and foremost and that colors everything. I suspect it is the same for other INFJs. I can easily see the feeling preference at work in terms of caring for others but it is much less observable in caring for ourselves or expressing intense emotion. I won't do that unless I'm very comfortable and only if I feel like entering that state. That seems to be the root of the feeling of F/T hybridization for me.

    I had a lot of trouble folk-typing an INTJ I know. I wondered if he was an armored INFP for the longest time because his emotions would sometimes unexpectedly surface and they were most definitely of a Fi variety. He and I have an uncanny amount in common in terms of the way we view the world, though he has a harder edge in general and I am more empathetic. He is very compassionate if he has experienced a situation personally and cares a lot about the few people very close to him. Everyone else is outside the bounds of caring and his feelings. In contrast, though we appear very similar to others on the surface (people have remarked about our similarities), I am empathetic in general until someone does something I really don't like. I also relate to your tendency to laugh at jokes that others find distasteful but feel terrible afterward if somebody else was hurt or offended.

    I have trouble dealing with strong emotions from others, which tends to make me shrink from the company of those who express difficult emotions in an unrestrained way. (This includes some Ts, whose dominant energy is aggression/anger/dissatisfaction). It makes me feel run over and then angry if I can't get away. My INTJ friend similarly shrinks from those kinds of people, though I'm not certain as to the exact motivation.

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I believe this is something you see more frequently with INFJs... especially those here on the forum who are more analytical frequently use Ni Ti which may resemble NTs on the surface.
    my thoughts too.

    there's a guy in one of my classes i thought was an INTJ at first, but he gave a presentation today, and the Ti was so obvious. definitely INFJ.

    to be honest i don't think i've ever mistaken an INTJ for an INFJ, only the other way around. i think it's true that their "affect" is similar. i had sort of the same thing happen as violaine did, though - wondered if an INTJ was an especially armored INFP due to the occasional bouts of Fi. but that was before i really understood the functions, so i was just all confused that someone who i thought was T was being so F-y.

    i disagree about INFP and INTP being obvious, though. while INTPs are usually hard to mistake for INFPs, INFPs can be mistaken for INTPs (and mistake themselves for INTPs) especially if they are enneagram 5s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    for instance, I'm the sort of person who would laugh at extremely sick jokes (the kind that NTs make), but then a few moments later feel ashamed of myself for finding it funny, possibly even apologizing. The difference is, an INTJ wouldn't feel ashamed at all. And an F dominant person would probably feel disgusted immediately and not laugh at all.
    lol maybe, i think sick NT jokes are hilarious though

    i don't know what i think about the SP, SJ, NF, and NT divisions. i don't really think NP and NJ are really any better than NF/NT. in my head i tend to just group by the last three letters, so we have 8 similar pairs. personally i associate most with ENTP-INFP-INTJ, so i suppose that's a kind of quadrant, but that just complicates things.

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