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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default ENTP/ENFP Symmetry and development

    The new forum system shows me all my blog posts I have deleted over the years. I guess others cant see them but I can. I found this one I wrote back in April of 2009 based upon the strange ENTP man who first brought me to the forum. It comes across as very presumptous as I reread it, my apologies. I sounded much more certain of myself back then-I recall feeling very enthusiastic and excited as I had found this amazing pattern that seemed to be real and have the potential to help people.

    Now days, to be honest I almost feel ashamed to have ideas. I am sort of cleaning house and posting a few final thoughts before i move onto a different area of interest but i felt this was worthy of sharing-not because it is correct, but, just because.....perhaps it is a useful seed with some observations of value...


    ENTP/ENFP Symmetry and development

    on 04-12-2009 at 06:41 PM (70 Views)

    ENTP=Ne, Ti, Fe
    ENFP=Ne, Fi, Te

    Stage 1: Normal development-Straight out of standard MBTI theory Most EXTPs spend maybe 60-80% of the time here

    For both types, Ne develops young, The secondary grows in during the teens. Teenage ENTPs can be overly analytical, know-it-alls, who are highly critical and vocal. Teenage ENFPs are totally emo.

    During the twenties and thirties the tertiary grows in. ENTPs become more understanding of social roles, social responsibilities and all the other Fe stuff. For ENFPs, the tertiary Te grows in and they become stronger, less focused on harmony and more willing to stand up against others if needed or deal with other�s displeasure. They become less sensitive as well.

    Problems: All the standard stuff that goes along with being an ENFP/ENTP.

    Solution:
    Time and slow growth of the tertiary. Also notice that Ne seeks outwards constantly for affirmation. For an ENTP it seeks recognition, acknowledgment, and affirmation that you guys are the masters of the game you play. For an ENFP we seek constant affirmation of our emotional value to those around us.

    Ne is an adorable little fellow, like a spider sitting in the middle of a web. It intermittently clicks the lines of the web, lets the waves roll down the web, and waits for a response to affirm that it still exists in the middle of the web. Without a response is it really there still? It isn�t sure so it has to keep clicking�

    For either ENFP/ENTP, you have to grow into looking internal for some of that stuff and recognize affirmation can come from within via the secondary function.

    .

    Stage 2: Overdevelopment of Tertiary function and underdevelopment of the secondary-The idea from Thompson with my own ideas mixed in. Most EXTPs spend less than 20%-30% of the time here

    Everybody uses the tertiary to some extent so everybody will fit the below descriptions some of the time. That�s why the tertiary is the relief function. It�s perfectly normal so try not to be defensive if this sounds at all familiar. It likely only becomes problematic when this is where a person spends most of their time and defaults to it over the secondary function continuously.

    For an ENFP, in this state, we use the tertiary Te way too much to defend Fi. So we function like an Ne-Te �blaze to amaze� style action fighter. We kick ass in the short term, are dominating and bitchy, can be harsh and grating, and are tired a lot. Big empty spot where Fi should be. Empathy comes and goes in short spurts. Ne looks outwards for approval too much to try and fill the empty spot.

    An ENTP in this state will use Fe to defend Ti. When questioned or challenged, intellectually they retreat and �charm to disarm� others via wittiness, humor, and silliness. Ne-Fe can be so very fun to play with but can also be very manipulative. Sly, witty, amazingly funny one liners are a sign of Ne-Fe at work. It seems there is some emptiness felt here if an entp lives here too much. At this point the symmetry breaks down some and the entp will start to use Se to fill the emptiness. Makes for fun parties. Use Se to drown out the Ne. Ne which is informing constantly of a lack of affirmation and respect for your accomplishments/knowledge/achievements/mastery/ability to win? Fe may drive this need for social recognition but becuase it is functioning as a tertiary function it does so in a clumsy fashion. The entp may feel torn between Ne-Ti defiance and lack of need for social approval and an Fe driven need to get social acclaim and thus feel like they have two faces.

    So instead of looking to others to fill this spot via Ne like an ENFP, instead an entp will use Se to just block the input of new Ne perceptions (which are disappointing in their lack of recognition). Likely the two functions share the same neural circuitry and can do one or the other but not both.

    Also in this pattern the ENTP will be very hypersensitive to criticisms and the ENFP will be very hypersensitive to rejection. An ENFP-ENTP relationship of two of these folks at this level could go very badly as one feels slighted, attacks with a tertiary function, then sets off the others hypersensitivity, which then causes a counterattack.. Fe tries to manipulate, and Fi feels it and attacks with Te to try and control it. Fe hates to be controlled and so the cycle begins again. Not very pretty�but quite the show!

    Solution: Consciously, specifically, intentionally practice using the secondary function, either Fi or Ti. Relax your guard to disable the tertiary, then intentionally turn down the incoming Ne perceptions. Then listen and pay attention to what is left.

    You have to relax-let the tertiary Fe/Te drop away. Try sitting quietly and relaxing your face and your body. Don�t be defensive at all. Quit being self critical. Then-this is weirder-you have to turn off Ne. Soften your gaze and sort of look internal. Ne is like a fucking tornado of noise dumping input into your brain, but you have to turn down the volume. Suddenly things seem quieter.

    Match this with some sort of phrase-I use �look inside� but whatever doesn�t sound hideously corny to you. Then see what is left. I am not Ti, I only know Fi. Fi starts to sort of bubble up from the crevices if I do this. It is really beautiful. I don�t know what Ti looks like. However I�d suggest once in that state, that you specifically worked to get to, practice doing logical/feeling stuff.

    During the work day or whatever, when you feel really tired or stressed, step through this again. Basically treat it as mindful meditation. Having the verbal phrase can help recapture this �sense� of secondary function. I have found when I feel drained and burnt the worst, I have been using Te and it exhausts me. Simply by dropping it, relaxing away from Ne/Te to Fi, I have a lot more energy. However I have to consciously choose to do this as I default to Te. My guess is it is alternate modes of neural circuitry being employed and differential energy/glucose/blood flow.


    Stage 3: A shadow personality emerges. Got the basic idea from Beebe but have elaborated greatly to encompass two personality disorders. Most EXTPs spend less than 5% of the time here.

    Beebe mentions that the other four unused functions can come into play in a shadow like function. Putting these in order:

    ENTP: Ni, Te, Fi, Se basically a shadow INTJ if they all emerged simultaneously
    ENFP: Ni, Fe, Ti, Se basically a shadow INFJ if they all emerged simultaneously

    Perhaps it is normal under stress for both types to sort of morph into this mode. I need much more data here, but in any case the shadow version would be expected to be a very, very negative version of the actual true type.

    In Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder (the ENTP version), the person lives with the �front� being who they really are and they pump huge amounts of energy into maintaining it. They seem to oscillate between pattern 3, the front personality, the sINTJ, when highly insecure, and pattern 2, the overdeveloped tertiary when more comfortable. They are prone to profound arrogance, lying, exaggeration, delusional ideas about self worth, manipulation and a total lack of empathy. They will attack anyone viciously who threatens their sense of accomplishment/mastery/skill/intellectual ability. They are also prone to breakdowns when others finally get sick of them and leave. They fear abandonment above all else yet are so sensitive to criticism that they get abandoned due to their abuse of others after others criticize them.

    In Borderline Personality Disorder (the ENFP version), the person is profoundly sensitive to rejection and perceives it constantly. When feeling rejected they will lash out violently and will cycle between overly emotional and dramatic and profoundly withdrawn or incredibly defensive. So it�s like they oscillate between a pattern 3 sINFJ when highly injured (ie giving everyone the biggest INFJ doorslam ever) and the pattern 2, the overdeveloped tertiary when more comfortable.

    My ENTP#1 is very close to living totally in pattern 3. We (the ones who know types at work) all thought he was a total douche bag INTJ when he first joined us. Except I couldn�t make him smile which was so odd. Then he turned into a crazed Se filled ENTP when not working.

    I know that I visit pattern 3 land occasionally. Maybe once or twice a year I become overwhelmed enough with something that I shut everyone out and step away. However it isn�t in a healthy way that I imagine an INFJ would do this. It�s a bad thing, not a good thing.

    Solution: Traditional psychology doesn't seem to have solutions, thus my willingness to make stuff up myself. My thoughts:

    1) Reduce their insecurity by making sure the Ne spider has something to pluck at. Make sure it gets a response, either emotional affirmation if an ENFP or acknowledgement of their accomplishments/value if an ENTP. Folks trapped in pattern 3 may kill themselves eventually because they feel so isolated.

    2) Hopefully this pulls them closer to pattern 2. Once there try and teach them how to build their secondary function to strengthen it and make it more confident and look within themselves for affirmation so that the little Ne spider doesn�t have to pluck the webs nearly so often.. Perhaps you can also teach them how to recognize the shift towards pattern 2 and 3 behaviors to self monitor, then give them tools to move themselves back again.

  2. #2
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Aaaa...at what volume should I play the sound ?!


    oh sorry...wrong topic

  3. #3
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You shouldnt feel ashamed of your ideas. Why ? I know the feeling that when you read your own shit just only one day later you always feel ashamed especially when someone close to you sees it the first time. But havent you had the courage to post this thread here, I would have never been able to read it and missed on a lot of intresting ideas and the interpretation of such.

    I agreed with everything you said until stage 2. What you said after then, I experienced; I've been down the road till stage 3 at times and I still nowadays have hypersensitive allergies from stage 2. What you described there I could relate to 100 %, I never thought about it tho really deeply and having someone talking about it actually made me feel a bit snuggly. I am glad you shared this again and I like to quote the text passages which gave me things to think about:

    An ENTP in this state will use Fe to defend Ti. When questioned or challenged, intellectually they retreat and �charm to disarm� others via wittiness, humor, and silliness. Ne-Fe can be so very fun to play with but can also be very manipulative. Sly, witty, amazingly funny one liners are a sign of Ne-Fe at work. It seems there is some emptiness felt here if an entp lives here too much. At this point the symmetry breaks down some and the entp will start to use Se to fill the emptiness. Makes for fun parties. Use Se to drown out the Ne. Ne which is informing constantly of a lack of affirmation and respect for your accomplishments/knowledge/achievements/mastery/ability to win? Fe may drive this need for social recognition but becuase it is functioning as a tertiary function it does so in a clumsy fashion. The entp may feel torn between Ne-Ti defiance and lack of need for social approval and an Fe driven need to get social acclaim and thus feel like they have two faces.

    So instead of looking to others to fill this spot via Ne like an ENFP, instead an entp will use Se to just block the input of new Ne perceptions (which are disappointing in their lack of recognition). Likely the two functions share the same neural circuitry and can do one or the other but not both.
    In Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder (the ENTP version), the person lives with the �front� being who they really are and they pump huge amounts of energy into maintaining it. They seem to oscillate between pattern 3, the front personality, the sINTJ, when highly insecure, and pattern 2, the overdeveloped tertiary when more comfortable. They are prone to profound arrogance, lying, exaggeration, delusional ideas about self worth, manipulation and a total lack of empathy. They will attack anyone viciously who threatens their sense of accomplishment/mastery/skill/intellectual ability. They are also prone to breakdowns when others finally get sick of them and leave. They fear abandonment above all else yet are so sensitive to criticism that they get abandoned due to their abuse of others after others criticize them.
    Folks trapped in pattern 3 may kill themselves eventually because they feel so isolated.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #4

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    Hmmm...it seems more like an idea trying to make sense of an isolated case and I'm having trouble following your line of logic (and where did that Se stuff come from?), but hey, you did provide a disclaimer!

    p.s. don't be ashamed to have thoughts...just think about them more (and fine-tune them with logic/objectivity).

  5. #5
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Will never grasp it why the majority of entps has so big troubles to really reflect upon things and rather responds by being a dick, tho they could do so much better.

    Maybe this's something that changes with age
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Will never grasp it why the majority of entps has so big troubles to really reflect upon things and rather responds by being a dick, tho they could do so much better.

    Maybe this's something that changes with age
    I don't think I was being a dick, I was just pointing out that I didn't really follow what she was trying to say (although she did make some good points). I even followed it up with a way that might help her remedy the problem in the future. I didn't think it was all that nasty of a comment. Maybe I should have used more smilies?

  7. #7
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Do what you must

    [youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmJUtQeiQzA"].[/youtube]
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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